is Hyper calvinism even to be considered 'real cal?"

[Skandelon]

Skan,

I think Mr. Olson is taking some poetic license in linking Arminianism to the Reformation, at least in a positive sense. Most Arminians bristle at the thought of being considered as Protestants. One can say that Arminians are a product of the Reformation only in a highly qualified sense. Arminianism was born during the Reformation period. The Reformation and Reformed Theology are linked, with the latter proceeding from the former. Arminianism went its own direction and was officially repudiated by the Reformed churches at the Synod of Dordt.

You wouldn't say Calvinism was born during that time, so I don't believe its fair to claim Arminianism was either. Both of these views (in different forms) existed long before the reformation as is evidenced in historical writings on the subject (which, btw, the more 'Calvinistic' (deterministic) interpretation didn't appear until Augustine, whereas the Early church fathers seem to strongly support the more common 'free will' approach)

I don't know of any non-Calvinistic Baptists who deny being Protestant. Can you name any notable ones?

The term "Reformed Baptist" is uniquely American, having entered usage in the 1960's. It came into use to describe an understanding of the Bible represented by the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. The term was more comprehensive than "Particular Baptist" which centered one point of Calvinism. So, in that sense, Particular and Reformed Baptists are products of the Reformation and can be described as Protestants.

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Thanks.

 

[Jerome]

The term "Reformed Baptist" is uniquely American, having entered usage in the 1960's.

No. . .the term was in usage from the early 1800s, employed by all manner of Baptist schism groups before they (eventually) splintered off:

The Stone-Campbell Movement: The Story of the American Restoration Movement by Leroy Garrett, pp. 144-145:

churches were still Baptist in name, but they were now referred to as “Reformed” Baptists. This was the case in Kentucky as well as Ohio. There gradually came to be scores of churches that were dubbed either “Reformed” Baptists or “Campbellites." Those within the Movement, even the Campbells, referred to themselves simply as Reformers, to distinguish themselves from other Baptists. They were not yet known as Christians or Disciples. lt was these “Reformed” Baptist churches that soon became known as the Disciples of Christ.

Primitive Baptists of the Wiregrass South by John G. Crowley, pp. 59-60:

ln 1827, in the midst of this conflict. the Kehukee Association of North Carolina sent the Hephzibah Antimissionaries copies of their minutes containing the "Declaration of the Reformed Baptist Churches in the State of North Carolina," . . . The Declaration anticipates virtually all Primitive Baptist arguments against Missionary Baptist practice. . . The strongly predestinarian Kehukee Association led the southern Antimissionaries in declaring nonfellowship—virtual corporate excommunication, as opposed to mere noncooperation—with missions and those who supported them. . . . .
The "Reformed Baptists" itemized their objections to the several modern innovations. They condemned missionary societies as being "only the inventions of men" and "without any warrant from the New Testament, or any example in the purest ages of the church." No person belonging to a missionary society could belong to a "Reformed Baptist" church. . .

http://www.atlanticdistrict.com/about-us/

The Reformed Baptist Alliance of Canada, the forerunner of the Atlantic District of The Wesleyan Church, was organized in Woodstock, NB on October 20, 1888. . . .In 1966, the Reformed Baptist Church became a part of a much larger denomination now known as The Wesleyan Church, headquartered in Indianapolis, IN. Our name was changed to The Atlantic District of The Wesleyan Church

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with the term "Hyper Calvinism" is that its definition is up for debate. There are those who oppose Calvinism who see any form of Calvinism as Hyper Calvinism. Most Calvinists would use Hyper Calvinism to describe those who believe the Gospel should only be preached to the elect. So, it is s partisan term that makes discussion difficult between differing theological camps.

know that some here would tend to view all calvinists as being "hyper", but my OP was directed to those whose viewpoint would be that God will save His own regardless of ANY human activity such as missions and witnessing/preaching....

 

[Herald]

You wouldn't say Calvinism was born during that time, so I don't believe its fair to claim Arminianism was either. Both of these views (in different forms) existed long before the reformation as is evidenced in historical writings on the subject (which, btw, the more 'Calvinistic' (deterministic) interpretation didn't appear until Augustine, whereas the Early church fathers seem to strongly support the more common 'free will' approach)

I think you misread me. Calvinism is a product of the Reformation; at least according to the theological position that developed through the Continental and Scottish Reformers. If you are asking me whether Calvin's view of predestination and election predated him, of course it did. But Calvin became an articulate voice and the term "Calvinism" stuck. So, while the doctrine attributed to Calvin did not have its beginning during the Reformation period the theological tradition did.

I don't know of any non-Calvinistic Baptists who deny being Protestant. Can you name any notable ones?

You do not? Try free will Baptists (full Arminians). They deny any link to the Protestant Reformation. Trail of Blood Baptists deny they are products of the Reformation, tracing their roots back to John the Baptist. These two groups are certainly not Calvinistic.

 

[Skandelon]

I think you misread me. Calvinism is a product of the Reformation; at least according to the theological position that developed through the Continental and Scottish Reformers. If you are asking me whether Calvin's view of predestination and election predated him, of course it did. But Calvin became an articulate voice and the term "Calvinism" stuck. So, while the doctrine attributed to Calvin did not have its beginning during the Reformation period the theological tradition did.

Okay. Gotcha now...

You do not? Try free will Baptists (full Arminians). They deny any link to the Protestant Reformation. Trail of Blood Baptists deny they are products of the Reformation, tracing their roots back to John the Baptist. These two groups are certainly not Calvinistic.

I'm not familiar with that group. I'm a Southern Baptist and I've always thought of the term "protestant" as meaning "non Catholic Christian" (like Gentile means 'non-Jew').

From web source: Protestant: It has been defined as "any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith in Jesus alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth" and, more broadly, to mean Christianity outside "of an Orthodox or Catholic church".[1]

 

[Rippon]

I'm a Southern Baptist and I've always thought of the term "Protestant" as meaning "non Catholic Christian" (like Gentile means 'non-Jew').

I agree with you.

From web source: Protestant: It has been defined as "any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith in Jesus alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth" and, more broadly, to mean Christianity outside "of an Orthodox or Catholic church".[1]

I agree again. (I better not let this become a habit!)

Phil Johnson,who started Pyromaniacs,has called Tim Challies :"The world's most famous Christian blogger." I will quote a snip from an article Mr. Challies wrote back on 4/22/04 called Reformed:A Definition. :"Christiandom is separated into four main divisions:Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic,Protestant and Cults. Protestanism is generally divided into two camps:Arminian and Reformed. The vast majority of Protestants hold to Arminian doctrine."

 

[Jerome]

Free Will Baptists deny any link to the Protestant Reformation?

Huh?

Free Will Baptist Welch College:

http://www.welch.edu/about-beliefs

the college welcomes students who share its commitment to the Christian faith in its historic, evangelical Protestant expression

http://www.welch.edu/about-mission

the college is fulfilling the traditional Protestant vision of the sacredness of divine vocation

Their commencement speaker this year was Reformation scholar Timothy George:

http://www.welch.edu/news/44/2013/2013-04-26#.Ulcho1Nr1iw

 

[Jerome]

Trail of Blood Baptists are "certainly not Calvinistic"?

Huh?

http://www.evangelical-times.org/archive/item/1107/Historical/Rolfe-Barnard---1904-1969--Part-2-/

the establishment of the Ashland Bible Conference in June 1954. Its first speakers were Rolfe Barnard, A. D. Muse, B. B. Caldwell, George Fletcher and Clarence Walker, who was President of Lexington Bible College and a Calvinist.

The Trail of Blood was published by Clarence Walker and his Ashland Avenue Baptist Church.