Isn't this thread about praying for someone's salvation?
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Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?
- Thread starter IceAndFire1328
- Start date
Stick to the subject, answer the questions aleady presented which addresses your "special cases" doctrines of the lucky few; I'm not intersted in chasing through your entire regimen of dogmatic circular arguments of your system. Show for a change you can follow an argument instead of using childish never ending smokescreens and rabbit trails to avoid getting to the truth in these matters.
Yes, why pray if it the outcome is already pre-determined? Try to follow along Rev! :laugh:
But, if you agree with the PB's, you would say that offer has nothing to do with their ETERNAL salvation, correct? ...the Gospel offer we present is for temporal salvation benefits for those who believe, according to the PB view.
While we are at it Ben, do you know what double predestination is & could you explain it?
Perhaps though youd best create another post so we dont go too far afield
Perhaps though youd best create another post so we dont go too far afield
If I agreed with Luther, Id say that as well yes.
Tell me 12 Strings your consept of Sola Gratia.
I don't play games about whether one wants to be called a Calvinist or not, my focus in whether or not their doctrines vitally hinge on determinism as logically the doctrines of TULIP do. I don't care what they call themselves but where their doctrines lead...Determinism defines it adequately and unescapably for all practical intents and puposes of debate as far as I'm concerned. I use the term "Determinist" because I tire of chasing the smokescreens of fallicious semantic abiguity tactics to make a point.
This subject of this thread begins and ends on one's biblical view of soteriology which hinges on determinism or not and the need to pray in true expectations that these prayers might be answered in and through our which are based on current interactions or not with God and whether these things are based on "influences and response" VS cause and effect - and if God uses us as we freely and willingly strive to do His work in love of His truths of a genuine offer of grace for all or has salvation already been pre-determined and the great commission is merely done for obedience without truth purpose or not. All these thigs come into play and by reason hinge on Deterministic views or not.
saturneptune
New Member
I go through three sessions a week. Last week we established the fact that Joan of Arc founded the Campfire Girls.
saturneptune
New Member
If I was wearing that boot, it would be square up your theologically challanged butt.
While we are at it Ben, do you know what double predestination is & could you explain it?
Perhaps though youd best create another post so we dont go too far afield
If I did it would hinge on your view of Determinism or not Determinism - which you will avoid while trying to illogically maintain that both are true and while coming up with the typical unethical debate tactics of presenting endless dogmatic circular arguments to smokescreen coming to a simple logical conclusion on the subject of Determinism - which would prove your system illogical at best and/or ultimately fatalistic if you were to have the guts to be consistent toward the logical necessities to which your system vitally hinges on.
IOWs just told you why I'm not going to begin chasing that rabbit - the validity of the argument you wish to present hinges of your holding to Determinism or not - and I will not start letting you have it both ways while you present endless circular arguments to avoid coming to this conclusion - BTW is the only defense I see Calvinists/Determinists using is these tactics to attempt to escape this simple logical conclusion. Its pure fallacy and not worth explaining over and over to try to have a reasonable on this board who just don't get it or are simply here to argue rather than come to the truth by means of ethical debate.
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saturneptune
New Member
All I can say about this post is that it is excellent. This is a great example of Christianity in action, and very much admire your actions.
Fine...I'm not a Calvinist so go debate a Calvinist.
Thanks...but now, am I suppose to Baptiste?
saturneptune
New Member
Opinions on that one will be all over the board, but I will give you mine, and please remember we are friends. I believe the authority to baptise rests with the local church. Having said that, IMO, what you are doing is pastoring a local church. You are preaching and teaching the gospel, using offerings to help the poor, telling others about Jesus, in other words, being a NT church. IMO you have the authority to baptise. If that was in dispute, find a local Baptist church to take on your church as a mission church and give you the authority, but personally, I believe it is inherent in you.
Another fine example of the unwillingness to follow a point and of the tactics used by Determinists to avoid having an ethical and meaningful debate.
You should be ashamed of yourself posting that kind of response especially regarding the subject in which you just replied to. Then again maybe you were determined to have no shame or maybe just don't have the ability to follow the points made...nevermind.
Another fine example of the unwillingness to follow a point and of the tactics used by Determinists to avoid having an ethical and meaningful debate.
Yea right, I have no appetite for still an
other endlless discussion about said subject with an idiot who is so obsessed with the topic that he will start a fight. I will say this and I mean it sincerely, go chase yourself.
the Cross of Chrsit was the MOST determined act of god of all time, yet jesus himself prayed that if possible, the father would remove the cup from him, but not his will but His will be done!
since he is also god, and knew the event HAD to happen, why was he praying? just to talk to himself?
Don't "Hypers' hold to double predestination, while moderates hold to predestination of just the elect unto salvation?
Double predestination has many meanings depending on who your talking to. Now Im not messing with you but before I could give you my interpretation, I would need some insight to yours.
Here is a portion of an article written by Phil Johnson on the subject matter, you might find enlightening.
Supralapsarianism is sometimes mistakenly equated with "double predestination." The term "double predestination" itself is often used in a misleading and ambiguous fashion. Some use it to mean nothing more than the view that the eternal destiny of both elect and reprobate is settled by the eternal decree of God. In that sense of the term, all genuine Calvinists hold to "double predestination"—and the fact that the destiny of the reprobate is eternally settled is clearly a biblical doctrine (cf. 1 Peter 2:8; Romans 9:22; Jude 4). But more often, the expression "double predestination" is employed as a pejorative term to describe the view of those who suggest that God is as active in keeping the reprobate out of heaven as He is in getting the elect in. (There's an even more sinister form of "double predestination," which suggests that God is as active in making the reprobate evil as He is in making the elect holy.)
This view (that God is as active in reprobating the non-elect as He is in redeeming the elect) is more properly labeled "equal ultimacy" (cf. R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God, 142). It is actually a form of hyper-Calvinism and has nothing to do with true, historic Calvinism. Though all who hold such a view would also hold to the supralapsarian scheme, the view itself is not a necessary ramification of supralapsarianism.
Supralapsarianism is also sometimes wrongly equated with hyper-Calvinism. All hyper-Calvinists are supralapsarians, though not all supras are hyper-Calvinists.
Supralapsarianism is sometimes called "high" Calvinism, and its most extreme adherents tend to reject the notion that God has any degree of sincere goodwill or meaningful compassion toward the non-elect. Historically, a minority of Calvinists have held this view.
But Boettner's comment that "there is not more than one Calvinist in a hundred that holds the supralapsarian view," is no doubt an exaggeration. And in the past decade or so, the supralapsarian view seems to have gained popularity.
As a funny side note though, have you noticed how the pejoratives are beginning to fly from the "softer & gentler side".... names like Hard Determinist, Heretic etc. Now they have no excuse because Icono has not contributed to this, but it is axiomatic that everyone who believes in Doctrines of Grace is lumped into the fray....thats just got them all out of sorts doesn't it now!?! :laugh:
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Y....I suggest you start another post if you want to discuss these topics. This is way off the OP.