Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?

[Yeshua1]

No. the problem is that the verses have been read over to fit man-made self-appreciating doctrines.



then you have just condemned everyone outside of the time frame when the gospel started to be preached and doctrines like justification by faith alone taught. in the process you also have condemned innocent babies who do not have the ability to receive Christ by faith, and you have also condemned those inherently born with mental challenges and defects, and you have created a distinct class of people for God to save, and if He does save anybody outside of that class, you will complain.
I am not saying faith is unnecessary, but faith is a component of conversion, not of eternal redemption.
gotta work now.
catcha'll later.

No, for i affirm that while to those who have the capacity to respond by faith to the Gospel once enabled to do such by God, that in His infinite wisdom and grace, God provoded for the remission of the sins of infants/mentally challenged, children etc...

And the lord knows his own, and by divine election, will save those 'special cases", and nmake sure the others get the Gospel and the means to receive it by faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

Listen "Y" I am not saying that a missionary Christian cant preach the gospel, provided the presentation of the gospel is grounded in the doctrines of grace. And nobody from the Old School side of the Baptist Church will deny that either....we know that you will get a response either way.... The HS is already working in that individual or he isn't & no matter what you tell him, if the HS hasn't planted the flag then the guy will NOT listen to you (my own testimony has my brother who was an Arminian Pastor constantly approaching me & Id rebuff him each & every time). We know that Christ has already died for the elect individual so heavy lifting is already done, but it is not the only element in accomplishing Gods saving purpose.... God alone is accomplishes this salvation by that grace feat, the sinner contributes zilch.

As my brother Pinoy stated, if infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them. This same message, that my child was in hell by four Calvinists (1 Sr Elder, 3 Pastors; OPC & Dutch Reformed Church) brought me to the Baptists in search of better doctrine & it was the Old School Baptists that have it.....not the ones emulating Orthodox Presbyterians & Legalistic Dutch Reformed dogma.

In summary, I'm stealing Mr. KyReds signature that he appropriated from Pinoy.

"...in terms of eternal salvation the only ingredients were Christ's obedience, the Father's will, and the Triune God's mercy and grace..." pinoybaptist [Amen pinoy!]

My point ti him and you though is that God has indeed provided for the 'special cases" by the death and work of Christ, its just the "normal" cases need to hear and believe the good news, and calvinists hold that God will amke sure they get the message and the means to receive it!

 

[Benjamin]

My point ti him and you though is that God has indeed provided for the 'special cases"

Well, lucky them! So sad for ones He doesn't "specially" provide for...

...and calvinists hold that God will amke sure they get the message and the means to receive it!

God makes sure everyone gets the message so that they have no excuse, that is what He judges on and righteously so - whether they recieve the truth in love of it or not.

 

[Tom Butler]

We don't have a lot of scripture which speaks to the future of infants who died. But there is one which I appeal to:
II Samuel 12: 18-23

18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

To me, this is clear that David, who we are certain was a saved man, went to heaven when he died. And he went to where his son was, and is.

 

[Yeshua1]

We don't have a lot of scripture which speaks to the future of infants who died. But there is one which I appeal to:
II Samuel 12: 18-23

To me, this is clear that David, who we are certain was a saved man, went to heaven when he died. And he went to where his son was, and is.

I think we need to realise that HOWEVER God has worked this out concerning infants/children/mentally challanged...

That it was the BEST way that it could have been done!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, lucky them! So sad for ones He doesn't "specially" provide for...



God makes sure everyone gets the message so that they have no excuse, that is what He judges on and righteously so - whether they recieve the truth in love of it or not.

mankind is already condemned, by the truth of being born sinners, estranged by God due to birth and choice!

rejecting jesus just reconfirms what that already was!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We don't have a lot of scripture which speaks to the future of infants who died. But there is one which I appeal to:
II Samuel 12: 18-23

To me, this is clear that David, who we are certain was a saved man, went to heaven when he died. And he went to where his son was, and is.

Yes I know this Tom, but I was told that David & his son were in the blessed covenant family therefore he & kin get a pass. However if your not a card carrying Mickey Mouse club member your kid gets a one way ticket to “Where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.” And the fault rests with you cause you never joined the MM Club (and got mouse ears) in the 1st place. Naughty Naughty!

My answer to them is a scripture these Pharisees (these teachers of the law) never thought of.....Genesis 18:25 Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? Then they asked if this meant I wasn't going to join their Freaking church? You know, there are times if I had a gun.

Could you imagine what that nonsense did to my wife? She still will not enter an Orthodox church & she really isnt cracked up about any church for that matter. She sees no mercy in them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, lucky them! So sad for ones He doesn't "specially" provide for...

Why!?! They have exactly the same warrant to believe in Jesus Christ as do the elect.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes I know this Tom, but I was told that David & his son were in the blessed covenant family therefore he & kin get a pass. However if your not a card carrying Mickey Mouse club member your kid gets a one way ticket to “Where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.” And the fault rests with you cause you never joined the MM Club (and got mouse ears) in the 1st place. Naughty Naughty!

My answer to them is a scripture these Pharisees (these teachers of the law) never thought of.....Genesis 18:25 Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? Then they asked if this meant I wasn't going to join their Freaking church? You know, there are times if I had a gun.

Could you imagine what that nonsense did to my wife? She still will not enter an Orthodox church & she really isnt cracked up about any church for that matter. She sees no mercy in them.

that whole case is perfect example of what paul meant when he said he could do miracles/healings/preach etc, yet without it being done in Agape love, was useless and worthless!

 

[Benjamin]

Why!?! They have exactly the same warrant to believe in Jesus Christ as do the elect.

Oh, yeah, right, special election and general election are the "same" and special doesn't actually mean "special" for the "lucky" pre-selected few???...got it... ...learn to put 2 and 2 together man and see what you end up with that system you're so hung up on. "Exactly the same"


"Why!?!" :sleep:

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, yeah, right, special election and general election are the "same" and special doesn't actually mean "special" for the "lucky" pre-selected few???...got it... ...learn to put 2 and 2 together man and see what you end up with that system you're so hung up on. "Exactly the same"


"Why!?!" :sleep:

fact is that NNE goes to hell that did not willfully choose that way!

jesus said the road there is wide/broad, MANY choose that way!

why didn't jesus stop them, redirect them back to the narrow way to eternal life?

Maybe because he knew they did not have the permission/right to go tht other way?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, yeah, right, special election and general election are the "same" and special doesn't actually mean "special" for the "lucky" pre-selected few???...got it... ...learn to put 2 and 2 together man and see what you end up with that system you're so hung up on. "Exactly the same"


"Why!?!" :sleep:

If you believe in complete freedom of the will, then what should it matter to you? If the person not being selected & should some way change his mind about Believing on Christ, who could stop him. Ive said this before & I will say this again, the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election (thats where I think you get hung up)...it is Christs promise to save all who come to him in belief. No Calvinist, no Old School Baptist ....nobody I'm aware of offers Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is Elect===but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you believe in complete freedom of the will, then what should it matter to you? If the person not being selected & should some way change his mind about Believing on Christ, who could stop him. Ive said this before & I will say this again, the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election (thats where I think you get hung up)...it is Christs promise to save all who come to him in belief. No Calvinist, no Old School Baptist ....nobody I'm aware of offers Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is Elect===but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

yes, for those who have the ears to hear from god will know his voice and will come unto Him...

the rest stay deaf...

 

[Benjamin]

fact is that NNE goes to hell that did not willfully choose that way!

jesus said the road there is wide/broad, MANY choose that way!

why didn't jesus stop them, redirect them back to the narrow way to eternal life?

Maybe because he knew they did not have the permission/right to go tht other way?

My point ti him and you though is that God has indeed provided for the 'special cases"

Exactly how do they “choose” if they don’t have the permission/the right to do so because of not being pre-selected to be provided for as one of those “special cases”? You clearly contradict yourself! Again, are the saved then “special” or just “lucky”? You’re telling me God pre-decided to let some choose to go to hell and others He didn’t give permission to choose hell, lucky them! You are clearly attempting to claim God’s creatures were designed with a volitional nature and not volitional nature at the same time? Make up your mind! Do you know what “volition” even means??? It means having the “conscience ability” to choose! So do they “willfully choose” or are they just lucky enough to be provided for as one of those pre-determined “special cases” that has the ability to choose???

The Determinist argument must always resort to trying to have volition both ways to avoid theological fatalism. Although, some Determinist are smart enough to recognize the need to have it both ways they apparently aren’t smart enough to realize that something cannot be true and not true at the same time! Use your God given ability to reason with and Think man!!!

What is God’s way based on? How did God pre-select (determine) the lucky/special individuals that will get to hear that genuinely effective “special” message and those who will not who only hear that general non-effective one? …In creation did He go “eeny, meeny, miny, moe, I’ll make this one to stay but I’ll make that one that gots to go”? No, we are told all God’s way are judgment in truth, that means all have the true ability (volition) to respond to influences from the loving and genuine message of grace He provides for all He created, in truth, and He judges according to His ways.

Here is the Truth in the matter:

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Poof! Goes the theological system of Determinism in all their folly…

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly how do they “choose” if they don’t have the permission/the right to do so because of not being pre-selected to be provided for as one of those “special cases”? You clearly contradict yourself! Again, are the saved then “special” or just “lucky”? You’re telling me God pre-decided to let some choose to go to hell and others He didn’t give permission to choose hell, lucky them! You are clearly attempting to claim God’s creatures were designed with a volitional nature and not volitional nature at the same time? Make up your mind! Do you know what “volition” even means??? It means having the “conscience ability” to choose! So do they “willfully choose” or are they just lucky enough to be provided for as one of those pre-determined “special cases” that has the ability to choose???

The Determinist argument must always resort to trying to have volition both ways to avoid theological fatalism. Although, some Determinist are smart enough to recognize the need to have it both ways they apparently aren’t smart enough to realize that something cannot be true and not true at the same time! Use your God given ability to reason with and Think man!!!

What is God’s way based on? How did God pre-select (determine) the lucky/special individuals that will get to hear that genuinely effective “special” message and those who will not who only hear that general non-effective one? …In creation did He go “eeny, meeny, miny, moe, I’ll make this one to stay but I’ll make that one that gots to go”? No, we are told all God’s way are judgment in truth, that means all have the true ability (volition) to respond to influences from the loving and genuine message of grace He provides for all He created, in truth, and He judges according to His ways.

Here is the Truth in the matter:

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Poof! Goes the theological system of Determinism in all their folly…

God is ONLY being who has REAL free will!

God is ONLY one qualified to determine whio is saved, not saved, and at same time, those not save are indeed personally responsible for being lost...

Do you deny that truth?

 

[Benjamin]

If you believe in complete freedom of the will,...

Complete?!? One way or the other man! Seesh you Calvinist/Determinsts!

... then what should it matter to you? If the person not being selected & should some way change his mind about Believing on Christ, who could stop him. Ive said this before & I will say this again, the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election (thats where I think you get hung up)...it is Christs promise to save all who come to him in belief.

"If" they have the "complete freedom" to do so, eh?

No Calvinist, no Old School Baptist ....nobody I'm aware of offers Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is Elect===but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

I hear you telling me you offer Christ like the Arminian then and are leaving out the election part about actually having the "complete freedom" (volition) to come to Him until after they are saved? Doesn't that seem the least bit disingenous to you?

I know of no non-Calvinist that needs to leave that part (what they truly believe about special pre-election) out. Well, I got nothing to hide and tell all they have the true ability to respond to God calling them which He "genuinely" "provides" for all His creatures and judges thereby.

I know you haven't been up wrapped up in Calvinism/Determinsm long, but before you got sucked into that into your pride of that intellectual systemic theology how would you put your children to bed? Would you tell them that Jesus loves them or would you be honest and tell them that you hope that are one of the specially pre-selected elect few and have been gifted the "permission" and the "freedom" to choose Him???

 

[Yeshua1]

Complete?!? One way or the other man! Seesh you Calvinist/Determinsts!


"If" they have the "complete freedom" to do so, eh?




I hear you telling me you offer Christ like the Arminian then and are leaving out the election part about actually having the "complete freedom" (volition) to come to Him until after they are saved? Doesn't that seem the least bit disingenous to you?

I know of no non-Calvinist that needs to leave that part (what they truly believe about special pre-election) out. Well, I got nothing to hide and tell all they have the true ability to respond to God calling them which He does for all His creatures and judges thereby.

I know you haven't been up wrapped up in Calvinism/Determinsm long, but before you got sucked into that into your pride of that intellectual systemic theology how would you put your children to bed? Would you tell them that Jesus loves them or would you be honest and tell them that you hope that are one of the specially pre-selected elect and have been gifted the "permission" and the freedom to choose Him???

Does man have the same free will as Adam had when created then?

 

[Benjamin]

God is ONLY being who has REAL free will!

God is ONLY one qualified to determine whio is saved, not saved, and at same time, those not save are indeed personally responsible for being lost...

Do you deny that truth?

Try to follow along and quit skipping the points already made: Pre-determined not pre-determined? Volition not volition? True judgment not true judgment? Based on what? Don't start talking to me about truth while you avoid coming to it with practical, valid and/or logical reason!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Exactly how do they “choose” if they don’t have the permission/the right to do so because of not being pre-selected to be provided for as one of those “special cases”? You clearly contradict yourself! Again, are the saved then “special” or just “lucky”? You’re telling me God pre-decided to let some choose to go to hell and others He didn’t give permission to choose hell, lucky them!

Now your quoting a Supralapsarian theological position about Reprobates & them being relegated to hell..... I dont believe "Y" is even referencing that position....Hell should not even be in the dialog.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me ask you Benjamin, "Do you view Old School Baptists (Primitive Baptists, Old Regular Baptists etc) to be Deterministic & indeed then Calvinists?