Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

IF they hold to God determining all things always directly, that is akin to Allah of islam, not yeshua of the Bible!

For they would have God killing your baby, just to get him to hell quicker!

Now I would not go that far & draw that conclusion. They are extremely structured to the point of legalism & overtly centrist in their beliefs & it probably would not matter that I am a DoG believer, which I wasn't at the time. Now if you are in their covenant family, then you would get a pass....IE, if my child died in childbirth without infant baptism, the child would be covered since the parents were covenant believers....kinda like having spiritual insurance policy rather than take responsibility for your own salvation. These are all strange concepts for me as a Baptist to grasp today. However most people are better than their church theology, doctrines & dogmas. Most realize there is something in it....like say, "MERCY"

 

[Yeshua1]

Now I would not go that far & draw that conclusion. They are extremely structured to the point of legalism & overtly centrist in their beliefs & it probably would not matter that I am a DoG believer, which I wasn't at the time. Now if you are in their covenant family, then you would get a pass....IE, if my child died in childbirth without infant baptism, the child would be covered since the parents were covenant believers....kinda like having spiritual insurance policy rather than take responsibility for your own salvation. These are all strange concepts for me as a Baptist to grasp today. However most people are better than their church theology, doctrines & dogmas. Most realize there is something in it....like say, "MERCY"

So they would hold that children of parents saved would be under the covenant if were baptized, but ones not, or from unsaved parents, are all lost?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Know that some form of hyper cals though hold to the elect getting saved by god, that they were elcted and saved already in eternity past, so had no missionary budget in their church!

the second part is conjecture, Y. like saying he's got a big waist, so he must be a big eater.

 

[12strings]

Calvinist Modus Operandi: (as revealed succinctly in this thread)

Step 1.) State one's OWN position
Step 2.) Caricaturize it/ Create from whole-cloth a "straw-man" of your own position, and blame the opposition for it...even though it was, in fact, YOU who submitted it!!!!
Step 3.) Cry like a girl about how you've been abused
Step 4.) Defeat the "Straw-man" (of your own position) that you yourself created....
Step 5.) Claim Victory.

What this becomes is a default "Red-Herring"....Some non-Calvinists will fall for this.....but I won't....Do better.
Grow up Calvie-dudes....we've seen this crap.

This is not the calvinists M.O., it is simply the MO of anyone desperate to prove their position, cal, arm, non-label-accepting person, whatever...This could easily be shown with quotes from both sides.

 

[Yeshua1]

the second part is conjecture, Y. like saying he's got a big waist, so he must be a big eater.

I asked the pastor of that church, and he said they had no missionary funding, for God would make sure to get His saved!

And hey, i like my big Macks!

 

[12strings]

I would think that the only ones that would be against praying for the lost to be saved whould be the calvinists, because of thier erroneous view of salvation.

I'm coming late to this thread, I ignored it for several days because it is scripturally obvious, at minimum that Paul prayed for people's salvation.

BUT... since you brough this up, perhaps you could answer this...

If you had a stubborn teenager who was rebelling agianst God, how would a free-willer/non-cal/arminian pray for him? Would not it have be praying for God to "try" to save him, to convict him by his spirit, send people to him, but don't actually change his mind, don't overcome his sinful will...that would be overstepping the way God works, no?

I see both Cals & non-cals having a problem with exactly why & how we are to pray for the salvation of another...for Cal, if it's determined, why pray...for a non, if God can't/won't really overcome their will, then what exactly are you praying for?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So they would hold that children of parents saved would be under the covenant if were baptized, but ones not, or from unsaved parents, are all lost?

Thats how I understood it.

 

[12strings]

I'd like to repeat this question, and anybody may answer who knows of any Scripture we Primitive Baptists (please do not lump us with Calvinists, no reflection on them, but anyone who does so already shows he knows nothing much about Primitive Baptists) take to an extreme that Scriptures do not teach.

I Believe there are several scriptures that Link a person's personal faith in Christ to ETERNAL salvation (PB's claim many of the belief/gospel/salvation passages are speaking ONLY of temporal salvation, ie, salvation from an earthly life of unbelief...and so many proof-texts that we might use would be rejected if they only use the words "saved" or "salvation."...so we must focus on scriptures that link faith/belief/hearing the gospel with ETERNAL salvation.).

Some are addressed in this thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76948&highlight="eternal+salvation"

Perhaps the most clear is in romans 3:21-26. Despite the arguments that v 22 could/should be translated as "Faith OF Christ" rather that "faith IN Christ."...those argument's don't change the fact that v.25 says the propitiation is "to be received by faith." ie, the MEANS by which we receive the justification, the free gift, the propitiation purchased by Christ's blood, is the faith of the recipient.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I asked the pastor of that church, and he said they had no missionary funding, for God would make sure to get His saved!

And hey, i like my big Macks!

Have you tested your chloresteral lately.... & please, Penoy has done missionary support in the past. It's just that these churches are small & they dont tithe, they put a box in the back of the room with a sigh that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. That pays to keep the lights on, the toilets flushing & AC & heat mostly.

If the HS is guiding you to a missionary location, thats fine....they then take up collections in support.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I asked the pastor of that church, and he said they had no missionary funding, for God would make sure to get His saved!

And hey, i like my big Macks!

and you disagree that God will make sure to get His saved ? did you even make sure you were both on the same wavelength as to what he meant with the word "saved" and what you meant by it ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I Believe there are several scriptures that Link a person's personal faith in Christ to ETERNAL salvation (PB's claim many of the belief/gospel/salvation passages are speaking ONLY of temporal salvation, ie, salvation from an earthly life of unbelief...and so many proof-texts that we might use would be rejected if they only use the words "saved" or "salvation."...so we must focus on scriptures that link faith/belief/hearing the gospel with ETERNAL salvation.).

Some are addressed in this thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=76948&highlight="eternal+salvation"

Perhaps the most clear is in romans 3:21-26. Despite the arguments that v 22 could/should be translated as "Faith OF Christ" rather that "faith IN Christ."...those argument's don't change the fact that v.25 says the propitiation is "to be received by faith." ie, the MEANS by which we receive the justification, the free gift, the propitiation purchased by Christ's blood, is the faith of the recipient.

well, let me put it this way.
we PB's believe that when rightly divided, the word of God showsGod deals with His people in two dimensions, or ways, or whatever word you all may want to use.
The eternal.
The temporal.
For the eternal redemption of His people, whoever they are, wherever they are geographically, or whenever they were on this physical world chronologically, He required nothing. No faith, no obedience, no faithfulness, no prayers of "acceptance". nothing.
Everything hinged on Him, everything depended on the obedience, faith, faithfulness of Christ, His willingness, His determination.
That is absolute, unmerited, unqualified, crystal pure grace which most define as unmerited favor.
Suffice for their justification, adoption, redemption and cleansing is the blood of the Lamb drawn from eternity past from the Lamb of eternity.
In the mind of God (the Book of Life, if you will) everyone whose name is etched on that mind was redeemed from eternity past, and finally redeemed in time at the physical flow of that blood.
IT DOES NOT NEED A SELF-SACRIFICING PREACHER TO MAKE EFFECTIVE THAT REDEMPTION/SALVATION.
Therefore, we PB's do not believe in SALVIFIC MISSIONARY WORK.
However, God did want the good news given to His people, everywhere.
That the once offended God and the once offending creature has now been finally brought together in Christ and through Christ and that His people are to turn from their idols to the living God, worshipping Him in their midst before a crooked and perverse generation, and living the "Kingdom way" here on earth.
So God calls His people out into assemblies where His doctrine is TAUGHT, and righteous living is required, where righteousness is rewarded, and unrighteousness is chastised, lies exposed, and truth upheld.
This is gospel salvation, not regeneration.
This requires faith and obedience and faithfulness, and such other works of righteousness outlined in many of the apostles' letters, the lack of which does NOT IN ANY WAY negate the eternal destiny of the elect.
Arminians, etc., call this: discipling.
AFTER they have gotten the sinner saved.

 

[pinoybaptist]

given my last post, and in answer to the OP, it is NOT biblical to pray for a person's salvation IF the salvation is the one which Christ ALREADY did. It IS biblical for one to pray that another person showing signs of a regenerate spirit be finally converted and it IS biblical to pray that a wayward child of God be brought back into the fellowship of the saints by the God who redeemed him.

 

[Tom Butler]

Pinoy, I congratulate you on how well you articulated your position. Although, as an evangelical Calvinist, I disagree with some of your arguments, I recognize a well-thought-out defense of your view.

 

[saturneptune]

That's right...you've invented. That does not cut it with me.

I have invented nothing. You need to reread Romans.

 

[saturneptune]

I have said that a myrad of times already Pino....I for one would never accept a Calvinist label. Yuk!!!

Why not, you have burned at least six posters in this thread alone untheologically just like Calvin burnt Michael Servetus.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoy, I congratulate you on how well you articulated your position. Although, as an evangelical Calvinist, I disagree with some of your arguments, I recognize a well-thought-out defense of your view.

Tom, I am not anti-missions per se.
As my brother EWF said, if a Primitive Baptist, in his heart of hearts know, that God is calling him to go to a certain area, whether local or abroad, to preach the gospel, then go he must, not waiting for anything else. not support, not encouragement, not money, not any kind of pledge.
His total dependence should be on God.
He is to "sell everything he owns" and go, forthwith, no delays.
However, he is to preach the gospel of a FINISHED redemption, not just a possible one, of a successful, sovereign Savior.
He is to stay ROOTED where he felt God led him to be.
He is not to lay hands suddenly on any man, neither consider himself a master teacher to whom everybody must congregate as James cautioned. He is to teach faithfully whatever he holds as doctrine where he came from, not laying down which doctrines are negotiable, or non-negotiable.
He is to instruct other men, THEN WAIT ON GOD TO CALL OUT TTHER FIELDS FROM THE FLOCK GOD ENTRUSTED TO HIM.
Unfortunately, we are all of us fallen human beings, with a Midas touch that turns everything we touch accursed because of our fleshly tendencies, if you understand what I'm saying.
Many western missionaries, even PB's, have a tendency to become papal and there is a tendency for preachers in very poor countries, like mine, especially those in far-flung, financially depressed areas to view them as benefactors, something which appeals to the flesh.

 

[12strings]

well, let me put it this way.
we PB's believe that when rightly divided, the word of God showsGod deals with His people in two dimensions, or ways, or whatever word you all may want to use.
The eternal.
The temporal.
For the eternal redemption of His people, whoever they are, wherever they are geographically, or whenever they were on this physical world chronologically, He required nothing. No faith, no obedience, no faithfulness, no prayers of "acceptance". nothing.
Everything hinged on Him, everything depended on the obedience, faith, faithfulness of Christ, His willingness, His determination.
That is absolute, unmerited, unqualified, crystal pure grace which most define as unmerited favor.
Suffice for their justification, adoption, redemption and cleansing is the blood of the Lamb drawn from eternity past from the Lamb of eternity.
In the mind of God (the Book of Life, if you will) everyone whose name is etched on that mind was redeemed from eternity past, and finally redeemed in time at the physical flow of that blood.
IT DOES NOT NEED A SELF-SACRIFICING PREACHER TO MAKE EFFECTIVE THAT REDEMPTION/SALVATION.
Therefore, we PB's do not believe in SALVIFIC MISSIONARY WORK.
However, God did want the good news given to His people, everywhere.
That the once offended God and the once offending creature has now been finally brought together in Christ and through Christ and that His people are to turn from their idols to the living God, worshipping Him in their midst before a crooked and perverse generation, and living the "Kingdom way" here on earth.
So God calls His people out into assemblies where His doctrine is TAUGHT, and righteous living is required, where righteousness is rewarded, and unrighteousness is chastised, lies exposed, and truth upheld.
This is gospel salvation, not regeneration.
This requires faith and obedience and faithfulness, and such other works of righteousness outlined in many of the apostles' letters, the lack of which does NOT IN ANY WAY negate the eternal destiny of the elect.
Arminians, etc., call this: discipling.
AFTER they have gotten the sinner saved.

I realize this is your view. I believe, based on romans 3, and numerous other passages, that you are mistaken...as you believe me to be mistaken.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I realize this is your view. I believe, based on romans 3, and numerous other passages, that you are mistaken...as you believe me to be mistaken.

and there we lay it to rest. I seldom anymore join in conversations, or debate, except where I think PB's are maligned, whether knowingly, or unknowingly. I have no desire to convert you, or anyone else.
That is not my job.

 

[Alive in Christ]

12 strings...

you asked of me...

If you had a stubborn teenager who was rebelling agianst God, how would a free-willer/non-cal/arminian pray for him?

in the normal way...


Lord God, in Jesus name, I ask..I beg, that you bring salvation to my son. I have done all i can to teach him regarding The gosple and the blessings that it brings. And I will continue doing that. ,but I ask..with the help of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.. for you to enlighten him from on high, in your timing

I ask in Jesus name.

Amen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why not, you have burned at least six posters in this thread alone untheologically just like Calvin burnt Michael Servetus.

You need to find a psychologist that can take you through your Calvin burnt Michael Servetus obsession.