Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well done Pinoy......I've been waiting for you to step up and articulate our beliefs. :applause::thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

Saw this silly little question being debated for 10 pages and couldn't believe it till I saw it went to C v A by the second page.

Of course it's biblical to pray for an individual's salvation—eternal or otherwise. The fact the question even comes up reveals a cold heart and a dry knowledge of the Scriptures.

 

[Aaron]

Why not, you have burned at least six posters in this thread alone untheologically just like Calvin burnt Michael Servetus.

If history and theology were water in a boot, you couldn't pour it out if the instructions were written on the bottom.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK, enough contentious commentary already! My brother Pinoy has been telling me in fact to pray for Gods guidance for my own home community mission & I share his position on many areas, particularly Sovereignty (the gospel of FINISHED redemption) & Mission Work. Though Ive mentioned many times I feel led to start something in this NJ wilderness, Ive received no help but from God who has kept me afloat with food, clothing & shelter. Even the fire at my sons place a few weeks ago is a hidden blessing because the boy is becoming closer to his mother & I instead of the world (which was taking him in directions I did not approve of). This forum gives me practice in knowing & defending what I believe (as well as the advice of some very well intentioned friends who look after me). With that said, I believe the Lord is enabling me to be a light to so many in this area that desperately need the love & mercy of a gracious God I covet all your prayers in working his will in this very Christ starved location.

Blessing all.

 

[convicted1]

"Y" please note that PB's as well as other Old School Baptists call upon men to repent and believe. Secondly, they believe that gospel ministers should go where they are directed by the Spirit and not by a mission board (Acts 20: 22-23).

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[salzer mtn]

I talked to a preacher of the primitive baptist several years ago. I ask him how could people that had never heard the name of Jesus ever be saved. He explained to me, when it comes their time of regeneration say like a indian riding a horse through the woods and the Spirit regenerates him, he would not have to know where it came from or from whom it came from. He would just know he was a changed person. So is this the belief of the primitive baptist ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I talked to a preacher of the primitive baptist several years ago. I ask him how could people that had never heard the name of Jesus ever be saved. He explained to me, when it comes their time of regeneration say like a indian riding a horse through the woods and the Spirit regenerates him, he would not have to know where it came from or from whom it came from. He would just know he was a changed person. So is this the belief of the primitive baptist ?

The Father chose, the Son redeemed, the Spirit regenerates. notice that chose and redeemed are in the past tense. Today, now, tomorrow, until the Lord comes, is the Spirit's, uh, dispensation (for lack of a better word).
Do you know who God's elect are ?
I don't.
But the Spirit does, because when God determined to choose a people unto Himself, the great One-in-Three were of one accord.
Does it offend you that God does not include you in His work of redemption of particular sinners ?

 

[12strings]

The Father chose, the Son redeemed, the Spirit regenerates. notice that chose and redeemed are in the past tense. Today, now, tomorrow, until the Lord comes, is the Spirit's, uh, dispensation (for lack of a better word).
Do you know who God's elect are ?
I don't.
But the Spirit does, because when God determined to choose a people unto Himself, the great One-in-Three were of one accord.
Does it offend you that God does not include you in His work of redemption of particular sinners ?

1. I doubt there are many people who would claim to know who God's elect are.

2. I would say those who object to the PB view most likely do it because they truly believe scripture teaches otherwise, not because they are somehow offended that God could save someone apart from their help.

3. One more question I have, of which I am not sure of PB beliefs: Regarding Eternal salvation, you believe man to be totally passive. Would you also say that our choices of obedience or disobedience are totally determined and foreordained by God, such that if I choose to swear at my father, or steal a purse, or kill someone, it is BECAUSE God has predestined me to do that? OR...is the TOTAL predestination something that applies only to the unseen, eternal aspects?

 

[salzer mtn]

I'm not easily offended. But i cannot do away with scripture like Rom 10:14 How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? In your way of believing you have Christ in the application of salvation but not in the presentation. That does away with scripture. That does away with faith by the individual or faith worked in the individual. That does away with Christ as the object of man's faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

well, let me put it this way.
we PB's believe that when rightly divided, the word of God showsGod deals with His people in two dimensions, or ways, or whatever word you all may want to use.
The eternal.
The temporal.
For the eternal redemption of His people, whoever they are, wherever they are geographically, or whenever they were on this physical world chronologically, He required nothing. No faith, no obedience, no faithfulness, no prayers of "acceptance". nothing.
Everything hinged on Him, everything depended on the obedience, faith, faithfulness of Christ, His willingness, His determination.
That is absolute, unmerited, unqualified, crystal pure grace which most define as unmerited favor.
Suffice for their justification, adoption, redemption and cleansing is the blood of the Lamb drawn from eternity past from the Lamb of eternity.
In the mind of God (the Book of Life, if you will) everyone whose name is etched on that mind was redeemed from eternity past, and finally redeemed in time at the physical flow of that blood.
IT DOES NOT NEED A SELF-SACRIFICING PREACHER TO MAKE EFFECTIVE THAT REDEMPTION/SALVATION.
Therefore, we PB's do not believe in SALVIFIC MISSIONARY WORK.
However, God did want the good news given to His people, everywhere.
That the once offended God and the once offending creature has now been finally brought together in Christ and through Christ and that His people are to turn from their idols to the living God, worshipping Him in their midst before a crooked and perverse generation, and living the "Kingdom way" here on earth.
So God calls His people out into assemblies where His doctrine is TAUGHT, and righteous living is required, where righteousness is rewarded, and unrighteousness is chastised, lies exposed, and truth upheld.
This is gospel salvation, not regeneration.
This requires faith and obedience and faithfulness, and such other works of righteousness outlined in many of the apostles' letters, the lack of which does NOT IN ANY WAY negate the eternal destiny of the elect.
Arminians, etc., call this: discipling.
AFTER they have gotten the sinner saved.

the prpblem is that there are NO berses in the bible that support that one can and will be saved by the Grace of god unless one receives that thru the agency of faith!

the Cross has secured salvation for those untended to be saved by will of God, but even they MUST receive christ by faith to have God appropiate towards them and save them!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well done Pinoy......I've been waiting for you to step up and articulate our beliefs. :applause::thumbs:

Apostle paul seemed to have gotten the message though, as he was concerned that people will NOT be saved unless they here and receive the message of Christ!

jesus also said that we MUST go out to the ends of the World and provclaim His name, for unless they hear and receive Him thru faith?

 

[pinoybaptist]

the prpblem is that there are NO berses in the bible that support that one can and will be saved by the Grace of god unless one receives that thru the agency of faith!

No. the problem is that the verses have been read over to fit man-made self-appreciating doctrines.

the Cross has secured salvation for those untended to be saved by will of God, but even they MUST receive christ by faith to have God appropiate towards them and save them!

then you have just condemned everyone outside of the time frame when the gospel started to be preached and doctrines like justification by faith alone taught. in the process you also have condemned innocent babies who do not have the ability to receive Christ by faith, and you have also condemned those inherently born with mental challenges and defects, and you have created a distinct class of people for God to save, and if He does save anybody outside of that class, you will complain.
I am not saying faith is unnecessary, but faith is a component of conversion, not of eternal redemption.
gotta work now.
catcha'll later.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Apostle paul seemed to have gotten the message though, as he was concerned that people will NOT be saved unless they here and receive the message of Christ!

jesus also said that we MUST go out to the ends of the World and provclaim His name, for unless they hear and receive Him thru faith?

So....do you think that I am not going out to all nations here in New Jersey where one minute I can be speaking to a Russian, the next a fellow from India, a woman from Latin America, a black guy from Plainfield, then a Muslim from Jersey City. God gives me all I need here without me depleting a scant budget from some broke churches who are already feeling the stress of a bad economy. And I draw no salary, I get my clothing 2nd hand from friends, my basement has people who have no place to live living there etc.

Now here is the only thing I want to know, is it right that I should be baptizing them because Scripture commands that I do Matt 28:19-20.

 

[Revmitchell]

In order to be saved [regenerated] the gospel of Jesus Christ has to be both preached and believed. Any definition of election that is contrary to that is just plain heresy.

 

[Greektim]

In order to be saved [regenerated] the gospel of Jesus Christ has to be both preached and believed. Any definition of election that is contrary to that is just plain heresy.

Baptist pope is speaking ex cathedra. I guess I'm a heretic then b/c I believe that regeneration is what will cause faith in the gospel. Ho hum, woe is me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Listen "Y" I am not saying that a missionary Christian cant preach the gospel, provided the presentation of the gospel is grounded in the doctrines of grace. And nobody from the Old School side of the Baptist Church will deny that either....we know that you will get a response either way.... The HS is already working in that individual or he isn't & no matter what you tell him, if the HS hasn't planted the flag then the guy will NOT listen to you (my own testimony has my brother who was an Arminian Pastor constantly approaching me & Id rebuff him each & every time). We know that Christ has already died for the elect individual so heavy lifting is already done, but it is not the only element in accomplishing Gods saving purpose.... God alone is accomplishes this salvation by that grace feat, the sinner contributes zilch.

As my brother Pinoy stated, if infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them. This same message, that my child was in hell by four Calvinists (1 Sr Elder, 3 Pastors; OPC & Dutch Reformed Church) brought me to the Baptists in search of better doctrine & it was the Old School Baptists that have it.....not the ones emulating Orthodox Presbyterians & Legalistic Dutch Reformed dogma.

In summary, I'm stealing Mr. KyReds signature that he appropriated from Pinoy.

"...in terms of eternal salvation the only ingredients were Christ's obedience, the Father's will, and the Triune God's mercy and grace..." pinoybaptist [Amen pinoy!]

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Baptist pope is speaking ex cathedra. I guess I'm a heretic then b/c I believe that regeneration is what will cause faith in the gospel. Ho hum, woe is me.

Guess I am too. :laugh: Didnt know we had Papal infallibility on BB.

 

[salzer mtn]

I believe God works outside the norm when it comes to infants because you cannot put God in a box, but for the mass (bulk) of mankind Paul said, For i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for IT is the power of God UNTO salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[salzer mtn]

And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying , Arise , and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.27And he arose and went : and, behold , a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had cometo Jerusalem for to worship , 28Was returning , and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near , and join thyself to this chariot.30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said , Understandest thou what thou readest ? 31And he said , How can I , except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer , so opened he not his mouth:33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away : and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said , I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.36And as they wenton their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.38And he commanded the chariot to stand still : and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip , that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing . 40But Philip was foundat Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he cameto Caesarea. In these passages of scripture you will notice the Spirit directed Philip to the eunuch and also to the word of God, so it must have been important that the eunich under stand what he was reading. It was also important to the Spirit and to Philip that Christ be preached. Philip opened his mouth and begain at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus. What was the results of Philip preaching unto him Jesus ? The eunuch said, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

SalzerMt, you posted...

I believe God works outside the norm when it comes to infants

Absolutly.

Just like those who, through no fault of thier own, never hear the gosple. God Himself will give them Light, to be rceived, or rejected.


PRAISE GOD for His great provision!!!