Which kinda Calvinist are you referring to SM?
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Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?
- Thread starter IceAndFire1328
- Start date
Which kinda Calvinist are you referring to SM?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Where i'm from if you just believe in eternal salvation, free will baptist label you as Calvinist. If you believe in the five points of Calvinism they label you as Hiper Calvinist. I have talked to Primitive baptist in my area and they say their not Sovereign grace baptist. The Sovereign grace people look at the Primitive baptist as being hiper calvinist in my area. The Sovereign grace baptist label all churches regardless if they believe in eternal salvation or not as free wills, if they believe man has a free will.
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You have me at a disadvantage, I dont know Tennessee but traditionally Old School Baptists are Sovereign Grace in soteriology. Now you will have to define where you feel they are hyper. Lastly, define free will.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
It's not what i feel but what each church feels about each other.
well, pretty much everybody would jump up and say, "I'm a grace guy", you know.
now, to answer your question.
This grace guy does not believe that an elect child of God has to be in an environment where the gospel is being preached in order for the Spirit to effect a work of regeneration on him/her whereby he/she may be, lit up, so to speak, enough for him/her to run forward to the minister's feet and beg to be told about Christ in order to be saved from the fires of hell and into the portals of heaven.
Calvinists do.
This grace guy, as the majority of Primitive Baptists do, believe that life and immortality is already a present possession of all God's elect and the preaching of the gospel brings those present possessions to light, as Paul stated to Timothy in the 9th and 10th verse of his 2nd letter to his protege.
Now, the question is, will everybody, that is, every one of the elect of God in all nations, speaking all tongues, be able to be reached by the gospel ? Why, even those who propose to be the bearer of God's gospel, God's ordained means of eternal salvation, whether they be Calvinists, Arminians, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, and everyone else in between, admit they are, alas, unable to do that because of their human limitations such as their inability to be everywhere and anywhere at anytime unlike God can which, to this grace guy, is baffling, as far as the wisdom of God goes, because how could such a wise and all-knowing God suddenly turn around and do such a dumb thing as rely on physically and chronologically limited creatures to do such a very urgent thing as effect the eternal salvation of all His people ?
So, this grace guys is, unlike Calvinists, not a means guy, that is, the only means, if one can even call it that, which God used (please note the past tense) for the eternal salvation or eternal redemption (phrases which I believe to be perfectly interchangeable) of His elect sinners, is the BLOOD of Christ, made to flow in eternity past, from the foundation of the world, as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and finally and effectually made to flow IN TIME at Calvary, as the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world (that last word itself being a source of much debate).
He appears to deny original Sin, so not really an Arminian either, as BOTh cals and arms affirm that!
Know that some have held that either ONLY the kids of saved parents are elcted by God to get saved, or that only a remnant of kids overall are elcted out to get saved...
MY belief is that God intended that the Cross of Christ makes provosions to account for thesins of infants, children, mentally affected persons eyc!
That he chose to elect all of them to be saved by Grace....
God has ordained that the message of the Cross will bring salvation upon those whom Christ died for, but will bring condemnation to those who reject Him, as they preferred to stay in the dark!
Don't PB hold that the elect will be saved by God, regardless if they even hear the gospel, so no need to witnes/missions?
Check this out: See attached
http://www.randyeverist.com/2012/04/original-guilt-vs-original-sin.html
Don't hyper cals take God being in control to such a degree that ALL is determined directly by God, and that the elect will be saved regardless if they hear about Jesus or nor, so why do missions/evangelism even?
Like this:
Romans 8:34-39 (King James Version)
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"Y" please note that PB's as well as other Old School Baptists call upon men to repent and believe. Secondly, they believe that gospel ministers should go where they are directed by the Spirit and not by a mission board (Acts 20: 22-23).
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Know that some form of hyper cals though hold to the elect getting saved by god, that they were elcted and saved already in eternity past, so had no missionary budget in their church!
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
My Conversion
When i was twenty three years old i was dating my wife to be. She was of the old school methodist at the time. I had been to church (Free Will Baptist) off and on my twenty three years, but the bible stories of the bible was all i knew. My mother was a great influence on me as she was saved and as i was growing up she related to me she had been saved at the age of fifteen. I ask her one time, if i ever get saved, how will i know it. She said, when the Lord saves you, you will know it. By the time i was twenty three i had shed all desires to be saved and was pretty wild for those days. When i met my wife to be, a christian, she was a church goer, so i would go some with her but i was not interested in the least of becoming a christian. Everything went off real well until one night at church during the message of which i could not tell you a thing the preacher said, i felt the Holy Spirit convicting me of my evil sinful life. I can tell you this, the Holy Spirit is real as life itself. I couldn't wait till the service was over to leave this place. On the outside i told my wife to be what had happened and she replied, you are under the convicting power of God. I said, what's conviction. As the following day's past i grew more concerned over my soul's salvation. One evening i took the bible down in my bedroom and began to read scripture of which none of it made since. I got down on my knees and begged the Lord to save. I pleaded, i made promices but there was no peace. Finally i gave up, got up and had ahold of the door knob to leave when i just looked up toward the ceiling and said in my heart, Lord i know you can save me if you will. This is when the Spirit of God flooded my soul to the point i thought i would be carried away. As i looked back i believe when i said what i did, i was admitting that the Lord was sovereign and it was in his power to save me or damn me, but i also believed he could save me.
When i was twenty three years old i was dating my wife to be. She was of the old school methodist at the time. I had been to church (Free Will Baptist) off and on my twenty three years, but the bible stories of the bible was all i knew. My mother was a great influence on me as she was saved and as i was growing up she related to me she had been saved at the age of fifteen. I ask her one time, if i ever get saved, how will i know it. She said, when the Lord saves you, you will know it. By the time i was twenty three i had shed all desires to be saved and was pretty wild for those days. When i met my wife to be, a christian, she was a church goer, so i would go some with her but i was not interested in the least of becoming a christian. Everything went off real well until one night at church during the message of which i could not tell you a thing the preacher said, i felt the Holy Spirit convicting me of my evil sinful life. I can tell you this, the Holy Spirit is real as life itself. I couldn't wait till the service was over to leave this place. On the outside i told my wife to be what had happened and she replied, you are under the convicting power of God. I said, what's conviction. As the following day's past i grew more concerned over my soul's salvation. One evening i took the bible down in my bedroom and began to read scripture of which none of it made since. I got down on my knees and begged the Lord to save. I pleaded, i made promices but there was no peace. Finally i gave up, got up and had ahold of the door knob to leave when i just looked up toward the ceiling and said in my heart, Lord i know you can save me if you will. This is when the Spirit of God flooded my soul to the point i thought i would be carried away. As i looked back i believe when i said what i did, i was admitting that the Lord was sovereign and it was in his power to save me or damn me, but i also believed he could save me.
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Y...have you ever been to an old school Baptist church? I personally would consider a hyper Calvinistic church one that tells a parent that their infant who just died is in hell because it wasn't baptised and never heard the gospel preached. Other stuff like predestination dictates every element of ones life beyond ones election so we have absolutely no say in our owndestiny. That's a nut job...that's a hyper Calvinist.
That is what I see as hyper cal, as one who takes the truth of God is in control to point that he has determined all things directly, so we are like actors in a play!
were you that one who had a pastor say that to you?
Then you can apply that to most Orthodox Presbyrerian and Dutch Reformed Churches...I. said most, not all. That's what happened to me when I unknowingly approached one of those. No Baptist church of any stripe would ignore God's mercy in the death of a child.
IF they hold to God determining all things always directly, that is akin to Allah of islam, not yeshua of the Bible!
For they would have God killing your baby, just to get him to hell quicker!