Is it moral to Kill in self-defense?

[seekingthetruth]

This is a ripe old discussion that provides insight. While a strict Mennonite would be a complete passivist to the point of being "Consciousness Objectors" in times of war...... I personally am not.....nor would I stand idly by if I or members of my family were being threatened.

EWF? I would hurt someone if I saw them attacking you.

We might not be blood kin, but you are my brother-in-Christ.

John

 

[plain_n_simple]

So I ask you the same question no one else has answered. If someone commits a crime against you, do you call the police who have the weapons?

Or is someone was attacking your children, you wouldn't resist them? You'd let them go?

Your "What if's?" show fear. It is not a what if, it is I trust Jesus.

I trust Him to protect me and my family. No evil will come upon us, who can stand against me when I have Christ?

No, I will not call the police, I will call on the name of Jesus.

Your what if's challenge scripture. Your imagination of "what if this or that happens?", introduces fear, and reduces faith in Him.

 

[Arbo]

Your "What if's?" show fear. It is not a what if, it is I trust Jesus.

I trust Him to protect me and my family. No evil will come upon us, who can stand against me when I have Christ?

No, I will not call the police, I will call on the name of Jesus.

Your what if's challenge scripture. Your imagination of "what if this or that happens?", introduces fear, and reduces faith in Him.

Naiive sentiment, not based on reality.

Ever consider that the Lord's protection may come in the form of the ability to protect yourself and your loved ones?

 

[plain_n_simple]

Naiive sentiment, not based on reality.

Childlike faith, God's reality, not of your world.


Ever consider that the Lord's protection may come in the form of the ability to protect yourself and your loved ones?

If you think God tells you so, go ahead, I'll trust His word that we don't fight against flesh.

 

[Arbo]

Naiive sentiment, not based on reality.

Childlike faith, God's reality, not of your world.


Ever consider that the Lord's protection may come in the form of the ability to protect yourself and your loved ones?

If you think God tells you so, go ahead, I'll trust His word that we don't fight against flesh.

Would you have the same attitude if a loved one was directly threatened of loss of life and you had the ability to prevent it by direct action? Or would you do nothing but pray?

 

[plain_n_simple]

I believe we are to do the works of Jesus, and greater. I have layed hands on the sick, and Jesus healed them. When you say "do nothing but pray", you reduce the prayer of faith as if it is a last resort. It is first according to scripture, if you believe.

 

[Arbo]

Didn't answer the question.

 

[plain_n_simple]

You did not recieve the answer. Yes, trust in Jesus to heal.

 

[Arbo]

When you say "do nothing but pray", you reduce the prayer of faith as if it is a last resort. It is first according to scripture, if you believe.

When I say "do nothing but pray", I mean just that. Pray without using whatever means, tools, or abilities Our Lord has made available for our use to help preserve ourselves.

 

[Arbo]

You did not recieve the answer. Yes, trust in Jesus to heal.

So you would do nothing to prevent a loved one from being accosted, but you would pray for their healing afterward? Wow.

 

[plain_n_simple]

So you would do nothing to prevent a loved one from being accosted, but you would pray for their healing afterward? Wow.

You still do not get it. Cast the evil spirit out of the attacker
in His name. The attacker is healed, which is what they needed. This is what Jesus would do, we should follow Him, not the world.

 

[Arbo]

You still do not get it. Cast the evil spirit out of the attacker
in His name. The attacker is healed, which is what they needed. This is what Jesus would do, we should follow Him, not the world.

May you never need to put your theory to test.

-And you are right to say I don't get it. I do not believe in the morality of standing idly by, hoping Our Lord will rescue; yet refusing to possibly become the instrument of that rescue that He might use.

 

[plain_n_simple]

It's not a theory friend, it is abiding in Jesus. His thoughts and actions becoming mine. Yes, I have been through these things before. Since we love "what if", you have a choice to shoot someone or trust Jesus. I hope you never take a life because of unbelief or a lack of faith.

 

[seekingthetruth]

You still do not get it. Cast the evil spirit out of the attacker
in His name. The attacker is healed, which is what they needed. This is what Jesus would do, we should follow Him, not the world.

This sounds good, but do you really have time to do this?


John

 

[Alcott]

Your "What if's?" show fear. It is not a what if, it is I trust Jesus.

I trust Him to protect me and my family. No evil will come upon us, who can stand against me when I have Christ?

I think you're goofy here. Evil certainly came upon Stephen, James, Paul and others. What was the problem?-- they didn't have Christ? Or is your definition of evil just 'something that never happens'?

 

[plain_n_simple]

They did the will of God, preaching the gospel with power, casting out devils, healing the sick as they went, and yes, evil still attacked. They did not waver but held firm to the belief that God is always with you. What we are talking about here is how to respond to an attack on you or your family. Will you use a gun, or call on Jesus? They called on Jesus every time.

How is your viewpoint different from the unbeliever? It is the same. Kill or be killed.

 

[CtheHammer]

I think there are a couple questions that can be evaluated in trying to answer a question like this. I offer them not as one who has all the answers for all of them, but as simple food for thought as a way that we might evaluate our motives and the various facets of such a controversial (as evidenced by the discussion here) moral issue.

First question is, "why are you being threatened?" If it is specifically for the sake of persecution I think it calls for a different response from if you are the target of a random act of violence, for example. I would contend that persecution for our faith is not so much an affront against us as it is an affront against God himself. The flip-side is that man is made in the image of God and therefore is held to be valuable and should be protected against those who would seek to malign God's image as it is reflected in the life of man.

Second question is, "What does our act of self-defense say about what we value and how we view God?" Our actions in any situation offer a statement of what we value and how we view and trust God. What does self-defense in the face of persecution say about how we see God as our provider and protector? I would contend that it implies that we don't fully trust him to be sufficient for our protection or faithful in our death. Efforts for self-defense in response to persecution could also go to imply that we value life more than we value the glory due to God through either our salvation or our death.

However, in the face of random violence, I contend that self-defense speaks to a valuing of life that is in line with the value God has for himself, his image, and the reflection of the same. Genesis 9:6 - "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his image." God holds himself to be supremely valuable, and mankind has a value placed in our life by virtue of the fact that we were made in the image of that in which God places highest value. To defend life against attack is to affirm the value of life and the even greater value of God.

(Side note that doesn't perfectly fit in with that point but I would suggest is somewhat related: I don't have children, but suppose I do and for some reason there is someone who intends to do us harm. In the face of harm or death my child cries out "Daddy, save me!" and I respond with inaction on the grounds that it is not right that I act in their or my defense. Supposing someone else comes in to stop things before anyone is harmed, what has my inaction told my child about the character and nature of God? What have I told them about how I view or value them? You look at the way the Psalmist describes God moving to act on behalf of his children when they cry out to him for help and tell me that a father moving to protect and defend his wife/children is in some way not keeping in line with the heart and character of God.)

A third question to ask is, "What is gained/lost by my self-defense?" Paul weighs in on this question by offering that to “live is Christ and to die is gain,” but also observes that he is torn between the two options. If I resist persecution, it might secure the continuation of my life for a little while longer, but what of the ways the cause of Christ would/could have been advanced through my reliance on God to enable me to suffer well? Resisting violence may also secure my own safety or allow me to serve as a shield to others, but at what cost to both those resisted and myself (for example, David, for all his military actions on behalf of God and the nation of Israel, was not permitted to run point in the construction of God’s temple because of the blood on his hands).

Overall I find this to be a fearful question to ponder and it is one I’d hope none of us would have to deal with from a position of personal experience (save the case of persecution). For me, I would say that I could not justify self-defense in the face of persecution. However, in the matter of defense against generic violence I believe we should stand against it from a position of valuing life and rejecting those who would act against it

Last thought: I would not consider action and prayer that God would bring something to a peaceable resolution are mutually exclusive. In any case I would desire that God would guide me and my actions, words, attitudes, etc throughout (before, during, and after as the situation allows) such that whatever the outcome he is glorified. At that point it is moving forward in faith, whether it is lowering my weapon, dropping the assailant, or something else altogether, trusting that God is sovereign in all things.

C

 

[Alcott]

How is your viewpoint different from the unbeliever? It is the same. Kill or be killed.

I won't say that my viewpoint is very different from the unbeliever. I learned many years ago about taking all these humanitarian aspects of the gospel and thinking something 'good' just mystically comes of them. After high school I worked for a few years at a shop that built wooden boxes, bases, helicopter cabin crates and blade boxes, and since I didn't waste my money on dope and wild stuff as most of the other guys did, they often asked me for loans, and I would quote those verses such "give to those who ask and turn not away from those who want borrow." I tried to just be blind, or something, for a while, but the situation wore on and I couldn't refuse to see that I was an enabler (though I didn't know that term then), and sometimes saw them smoking dope right there on the parking lot right after I'd lent them a few bucks. And about this time a new guy came along and heard about me and thought he would get his part in this junk. Still on the fence, I did give a couple of loans, but then he didn't pay back and denied he owed me and still asked for more, showing me his Bowie knife and bragging about how sharp it was. I think that was the incident that cured me of this humanitarian nonsense, and I dared that guy to assault me if that was his intention. It was also there that I really learned a certain tactic I had only speculated before; and that is that I can "burn" my eyes into another person's and make him fear me. It worked. Several more times that guy threatened assault if I didn't lend him money, but it worked every time. Meanwhile, I also had plans to keep my lighter in my pocket (I was a pipe smoker then), and if it came to a struggle I was going to burn him in a different way; that is, if my hammer or impact nailer wasn't in my hand at the time, in which case I intended to cost him an eye. A few months after I left that job, I saw in the local paper that same guy was convicted for aggravated assault.

But that was it. Since then nobody other than a close friend has asked me for a loan without me shouting in his face, and nobody implies threats without my burning eyeballs and my face coming stright up toward his. If you think being a Christian is being a cowardly enabler, we have a chasm that won't be breeched in this world. And my loaded revolver will stay in my night stand, ready to be used.

 

[plain_n_simple]

None of what you said even mentioned Jesus or your faith, or that the Holy Spirit guided you to use your "burning eyeballs". If you wish to use the flesh and it works for you so be it, I'll follow Jesus.

 

[Alcott]

None of what you said even mentioned Jesus or your faith, or that the Holy Spirit guided you to use your "burning eyeballs".

There's good reason for that-- it was my own decision. And it accomplished something where [the words of] Jesus or my faith resulted in more dope being smoked the threats. Of course, Jesus did also say something about giving pearls to swine; how they will trample them and attack you.

If you wish to use the flesh and it works for you so be it, I'll follow Jesus.

So be it.