Is it okay for women to preach but not pastor?

[standingfirminChrist]

1 Timothy 3:1 - 7 should be enough scripture to show a woman is not to be a pastor. The word bishop is the same office as elder or pastor. The Word of God plainly says the bishop should be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband. It should be cut and dried right there.

That does not prohibit women from preaching the Word. The woman at the well preached the word in going to the city and telling everyone 'Come see a man...'

The women at the tomb were told to take the message of the risen Savior to the disciples.

Philip's 4 daughters prophesied Acts 21
Anna was a prophetess in the temple in Luke
Deborah was a prophetess in Judges 4

Women can and should obey the Spirit and preach when the Spirit prompts. However, they are not to pastor.

 

[gb93433]

I think a woman pastor is typical when men will not lead.

When men are too lazy and will not lead God will use a woman to get out the message.

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by gb93433:
I think a woman pastor is typical when men will not lead.

When men are too lazy and will not lead God will use a woman to get out the message.

There are some lazy men out there.

 

[ronthedisciple]

From some preliminary studies (and be advised I'm not done with my soul searching on this one yet), this is my take on the issue:

It is appearing to me that Paul is writing to Timothy concerning some problems that are occurring in Ephesus. It seems that things are getting out of control, and Timothy may not be confident to handle the matters. So, Paul sends this letter to Timothy to reassure him and to put some measures in place to bring things under control until he can return and deal with it personally. I take note that Paul makes it clear to Timothy that he intends to return (3:14-15) and what Timothy ought to do until his return. Considering that in Paul's letter to the Galatians (refer to Gal. 3:26) we see that in Christ there are no distinctions of race, culture, social status, or gender. Therefore, I think the best interpretation of the restrictions on women in 1 Timothy are that they were temporary restrictinos put in place to bring an out of control congregation under control. I visualize a stagecoach running at top speed. God would rather us run at top speed, but when we get out of contol, the driver has to tighten the reins, slow town the team, and exert restrictions. When the team of horses is back in sinc, then the reins are loosened and the team is free to run again full-out again. I think maybe the passages in 1 Timothy and Galatians refer to this principle. God's desire is that we be free in Christ - as equals. But, when we get out of control in our freedom, we must have discipline rein us in until we get back on track. Considering the social context in which Paul was writing, when translated into today's culture, where men and women are working towards shared roles (which better conforms to Gal 3:26), that the roles of men and women as written in 1 Timothy may be read in reverse, depending on who and what is involved. For example, if a church today, who is lead predominately by men, was to run amok, then the women of the church should take charge and restore discipline, and vice versa when the roles are reversed. The point is not about male and female roles, but about maintaining order, good discipline so that we can all serve our Lord as one.

That is my take on it for now. I'd appreciate comments.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Pastorship is an authority position. As I posted earlier, husband of one wife should be proof enough that women are not to pastor. God's Word abideth forever.

1 Corinthians 11 reveals the order as thus:

God
Christ
Man
Woman

The woman is to be submissive to the man's authority, man to Christ, Christ to the Father.

Preaching is open to all who have received the Word. To him that little is given little is required, to him that much is given much is required.

If all you know of God's word is John 3:16, then you are responsible for what you do with it. Man or woman.

Preaching is not authority, it is service.

 

[Preacher @ Bethel]

I think it would be hard for a woman to preach when the bible commands that she be in silence in the church and that she not usurp authority over the man. I am sure many people would disagree with this but the bible seems clear on it. 1Timothy 2:1-12 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1Corithians 14:33-35 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." There is a great book written by Mark Fenison called "Baptist Women Exalted" that you might find interesting. You can view it online at http://www.bethelbaptistky.com/library/baptistwomenexalted/contents.html .

 

[shannonL]

Ronthedisciple,

Never have I found in any commentary that the letters to Timothy were "temporary" instructions given to Timothy to preform until Paul returns. Nor does Scripture indicate that at all.
It is simply conjecture on your part.
You conclude that culture dictates the principles of Scripture given your analogy of today's society. It is the other way around. Biblical priniciples "should" govern the culture.
Your previous post is loaded with more than just this issue. You make the claim that God doesn't see a distinction between male, female,gender etc.. You use Galatians as your prop. The only problem is the fact that Galatians was written to remind the Galatians that it is by God's grace they were saved by the work that was finished on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is free to all not limited by race, country color or creed,gender etc... The Galatians couldn't add anything to the work of salvation be it judism,circumcision etc....
The pastoral epistles, Timothy being one of these was written to give us "unchanging" principles on how the local church is conduct itself as a body of believers. The two books do not contradict one another. Your taking the principles of Galatians out of context when trying to use them to prop up your position of women being pastors.
BTW, the way you worded your above post it seems to me that your impying that God would not disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle since you claim that Christ makes no distinction between "genders". Also, if the instructions given to Timothy were temporary are the instructions given to the ephesians concerning marriage temporary?
Just because it may take both husband and wife working in order to bring home the bacon that has nothing to do with how the local church is to conduct itself. Society and its cultural changes have no influence on the bride of Christ. He shed his blood for her and He left specific instructions on how she is to be kept.

 

[Preacher @ Bethel]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Ronthedisciple,


You conclude that culture dictates the principles of Scripture given your analogy of today's society. It is the other way around. Biblical priniciples "should" govern the culture.

Society and its cultural changes have no influence on the bride of Christ.

AMEN< & AMEN

Preacher @ Bethel

 

[ronthedisciple]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Never have I found in any commentary that the letters to Timothy were "temporary" instructions given to Timothy to preform until Paul returns.]

This idea is suggested as a possible interpretation in the Broadman Commentary. The same commentary also admits that scholars have difficulty in interpreting the most accurate translation of the Scriptures involved in this discussion, and also state that a too literal interpretation of the 1 Timothy passages produces a problem in reconciling Galatians 3:26.

[/QB][/QUOTE]It is simply conjecture on your part. ] [/QB][/QUOTE]

No, I have shared preliminary conclusions based on incomplete prayer and study.

[/QB][/QUOTE]You conclude that culture dictates the principles of Scripture given your analogy of today's society.[/QB][/QUOTE]

No, I am sharing that I recognize that God makes use of many different methods and media in the Bible to teach us His principles. Sometimes those principles are built into the context, both literally and culturally. I do not suggest that culture dictates God's principles, but that we must listen to His story in the light of the culture from which it comes. The message for us is the one that dos not depend on cultural boundaries - it is the timeless, eternal truth of God that is there that we must listen to. Cultures (other than the Christian Culture) are never eternal.

[/QB][/QUOTE] You make the claim that God doesn't see a distinction between male, female,gender etc.. You use Galatians as your prop. [/QB][/QUOTE]

First, I am not making any claims. I am merely sharing my thoughts on a matter that is still under investigation. Also, the suggestion was not as you say, but rather that complete equality is one of the goals. Christ did tell us that there is no marraige in Heaven. I can understand how you achieve the interpretation of Galatians that you have, and I don't entirely disagree with you, but I do believe that Paul's message goes much deeper, and I am certain that equality in Christ is indeed at least one of the goals of perfection.

[/QB][/QUOTE] Your taking the principles of Galatians out of context when trying to use them to prop up your position of women being pastors.[/QB][/QUOTE]

You obviously misunderstand my motives. I am not in the business of "propping up" my opinions. Unlike the majority of folks here, I did not enter this discussion already cetain of the truth. On the contrary, I entered this discussion fully aware that what I had been accepting without question might be in error, and have sought to find the truth. Jesus' promise is that if I seek I shall find, so I know it is only a matter of my diligence and time and I will conclusively from the Holy Spirit on this matter, and then it will be a done deal - all but the changing.

[/QB][/QUOTE] BTW, the way you worded your above post it seems to me that your impying that God would not disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle since you claim that Christ makes no distinction between "genders". [/QB][/QUOTE]

Here is a case of the receiver of a communication creating the presence of an implication. I made no such implication. Besides, if there is in fact no gender, then there is no sexuality, thus no homosexuality. So, there is nothing contradictory about God's desires in this. God's Word is eternal - our sexuality, I'm pretty sure, is not.

[/QB][/QUOTE] Also, if the instructions given to Timothy were temporary are the instructions given to the ephesians concerning marriage temporary? [/QB][/QUOTE]

I haven't studied it that far to have an answer - yet. For the time being, it appears to me that the temporary measures would apply to the roles of mena nd women and the qualifications for elders and deacons as written in 1 Timothy - but I am not convinced of that as yet.

[/QB][/QUOTE]Society and its cultural changes have no influence on the bride of Christ. He shed his blood for her and He left specific instructions on how she is to be kept. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The truth is that society and culture has had immense influence over the development of the Church. I still haven't heard a good answer to the question that is a church congregation has resolved to remain true to the letter of the word as written in these passages, then why don't they still wear the same clothes as described in the Epistles? Why don't they sing the same songs, meet in the same kinds of places, etc. etc. The answer I am sure lies in the changing cultures. And I have to wonder about the dangers of being legalistic over this - like the Judaizers of Paul's day. You and others may think the answers are clear. I am not so convinced, and am aware of factors that go much deeper. Are you willing to sacrifice the peace and good order that Paul taught was so important, to set back Woman Suffrage by a century or more? Do you believe the Women's Rights movements are a product of the sinful World? If so, then does tha also include equality movements on racial grounds? on nationality? on age? These are very serious questions. We owe it our children and future generations, and most of all to our Lord and King to be sure we understand His will correctly. THAT is my aim.

 

[Preacher @ Bethel]

Originally posted by ronthedisciple:

Originally posted by shannonL:
[qb]Never have I found in any commentary that the letters to Timothy were "temporary" instructions given to Timothy to preform until Paul returns. This idea is suggested as a possible interpretation in the Broadman Commentary. The same commentary also admits that scholars have difficulty in interpreting the most accurate translation of the Scriptures involved in this discussion, and also state that a too literal interpretation of the 1 Timothy passages produces a problem in reconciling Galatians 3:26. .]

I think we need to base our beliefs on what the bible says instead of the commentaries. Commentaries are good for a lot of things but when it comes right down to it they are full of a lot of heresy also. I have a library full of a lot of books but I have to base what I believe on the bible.

Pastor@Bethel

 

[El_Guero]

"Galatians 3:26", most likely you were referring to the passage & not the singular verse. However, the passage was dealing with salvation by God versus slavery to their gods. In that context there was neither male nor female.

Paul's instruction to Timothy & Titus to install leadership in the churches stands.

Professing the Gospel is different than Pastoring the flock - altho' they can overlap. Unfortunately, we define 'Preaching' as 'what' the GNT defined as 'Pastoring'.

 

[ronthedisciple]

Originally posted by Preacher @ Bethel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

I think we need to base our beliefs on what the bible says instead of the commentaries. Commentaries are good for a lot of things but when it comes right down to it they are full of a lot of heresy also. I have a library full of a lot of books but I have to base what I believe on the bible.

Pastor@Bethel

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed. I personally regard the Bible as the Supreme Authority in the world. I also know that the Bible is a complex literary work, and requires extensive study, not only in its own pages, but in history, literature, religion, cultures, govenrments, etc. in order to begin to breach real understanding of the messages it has to offer. The Bible has been described in a hymn as like a mine, holding deep within its halls lie great nuggets of truth and wisdom. Well, like a mine, it is required to dig for those treasures. That being said, I personally find it quite valuable to study a variety of Bible commentaries, and to listen to discussions on its precepts. It would foolish of me to think that I alone can discern all the truths about my Savior and Lord. No, I am part of His Church, wherein we all study together, even when we are studying alone. We share our insights and thereby The Holy Spirit can spread what He speaks to us individually. Many commentaries are result of diligent and laborous work donw by people who have made Biblical study their specialty profession. Certainly there is much value in that to the lay scholar. It is so easy to discard a commentary, just because it didn't say what you wanted it to say. Personally, I believe I would be remiss if I did not give earnest consideration to their labors.

 

[Jimmy C]

Romans 16 1-7
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae. 2 So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many--and of me also. 3 Give my greetings to Prisca and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life. Not only do I thank them, but so do all the Gentile churches. 5 Greet also the church that meets in their home. Greet my dear friend Epaenetus, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

Folks I am just a simple layman in our church. I keep coming back to these verses, as well as the verses regarding Philip's Daughters who prophesied (preached). How is it that Paul seemingly praises the work of Women - incuding Junia who is "outstanding among the Apostles". Then look at Phoebe who was a servant/deacon - Paul instructed the people of the church at Rome to assist her in whatever manner that she needs. Phoebe was clearly a leader and Paul was instructing the Church at Rome to be under her authority.

Priscillla clearly instructed Appolos and helped lead a church at her house.

I dont think the Bible is contradictory, I also think that ALL of scripture is inspired including these verses. It is too easy to look at the 1Tim passages and ignore these passages.

 

[gb93433]

(vs. 11) The women have qualifications too
1. Who are the women? Look at the verses before and after.
a. We know that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1- 2 is called a diakonos
Rom. 16:1 2 - "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."

She obviously was a servant in the church. Paul refers to her as a servant, a diakonos, the same word used for deacon.

b. In Hebrew there is no word for wife. The way it was expressed was "the woman of him." This very same expression is used in the NT. In Greek there is only one word for woman and it can mean either woman or wife.

Of the 215 uses of the word for woman, only one seems to be controversial in its translation.

When wife is used it is clear from the context that it is someone’s wife that is being talked about.

"Woman" - always clear from the context

c. In the Greek text there is not a definite article before women or at least a genitive pronoun following the word "woman". This would lead one to translate that word "women" and not "wives"

d. There is plenty of evidence that the early church utilized women in ministry. There were women whose responsibility was to work with other women and children. They performed pastoral work with the sick and the poor and helped at baptism. From the earliest times deaconesses visited the sick, acted as door-keepers at the women's entrance to the church, kept order among church women, taught females in preparation for baptism and acted as sponsors for homeless children. They also carried official messages. There was a clearer line drawn between the sexes than there is today. Women deacons were not on the same level as men deacons. They could not teach and minister to mixed groups of people or men, and they were not ordained.

For the first 1200 years of Christianity there is loads of evidence of woman deacons in the church. However, the Western Roman Catholic church never had them. Whereas the eastern church did

Almost every country outside of the U.S. has women deacons in Baptist churches.

e. The emergence of deaconesses is unclear. But in the third and fourth centuries the office deaconess developed greatly. In a letter dated 112 A.D. Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. 'In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses.
(Book X, XCVI, 8, 289)

f. In the early church a pastor never talked directly to a woman in the congregation. He went through a deacon who went to a deaconess who approached the woman.


Most of the qualifications which deacons and pastors must possess are qualifications that most Christians should possess. I believe that there are two reasons for qualifications of a pastor and deacon. One is that God knows the pain that would be inflicted upon an immature pastor and deacon and the pain the immature pastor or deacon would inflict upon others. Secondly it would be a standard and a warning for those who hold the office of deacon or pastor.

Pastors and deacons must be men of good conduct and sound in their faith. They must be people who prove themselves to be an example, not simply as a position of authority. In the church of God there is only one authority who is Jesus Christ. He is the head. All of us are merely servants.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

2 So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many--and of me also.

This does not imply leadership. I can assist a woman in carrying groceries, or help my wife in doing housework. This does not mean she is my spiritual leader.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
It always strikes me as intriguing that women are encouraged to be missionary pastors. But, here in the 3d largest mission field in the world, a woman cannot teach a coed sunday school class.

I often wonder if that is why so many women want to be missionary preachers.

I've not been following this thread, but I always perk up when the subject of missions comes up.

The main reason having women as missionary pastors is a bad idea is that then the Christian family is not modeled Biblically on the mission field. And this is a HUGE reason in my mind. One of the biggest failures of missions in the past century (as well as workaholic Christianity in America) is the failure to Biblically model the home.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:

Priscillla clearly instructed Appolos and helped lead a church at her house.

I dont think the Bible is contradictory, I also think that ALL of scripture is inspired including these verses. It is too easy to look at the 1Tim passages and ignore these passages.

GB93433 has done a good job discussing Phoebe and other aspects of this question.

Concerning Priscilla, "Biblical feminism" has a heyday with her, but they are wrong. She did not "clearly instruct Apollos." The Greek word used in Acts 18:25 is not didaskw, which would have been the word used for "teaching" or "instructing." The Greek word is ektithemi, meaning Aquila and Priscilla merely explained some things to Apollos, just as any Christian might. And it is aorist tense, meaning it was a one-time event, not a school-type set up, like some have suggested.

Did Priscilla "help lead a church" at her house? No. She was just mentioned 6 times in the NT (Acts 18:2, 18, 26; Rom. 16:3; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19), and in none of those verses is she said to be a leader or to lead.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, John!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
The main reason having women as missionary pastors is a bad idea is that then the Christian family is not modeled Biblically on the mission field. And this is a HUGE reason in my mind. One of the biggest failures of missions in the past century (as well as workaholic Christianity in America) is the failure to Biblically model the home.

How do you feel about single women doing missionary work?

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
The main reason having women as missionary pastors is a bad idea is that then the Christian family is not modeled Biblically on the mission field. And this is a HUGE reason in my mind. One of the biggest failures of missions in the past century (as well as workaholic Christianity in America) is the failure to Biblically model the home.

How do you feel about single women doing missionary work? </font>[/QUOTE]I've known some wonderful single women missionaries--and of course some duds, just like us men missionaries.

Short of pastoring, I believe that a single woman can be a blessing on the field. But the missionary life for a single person, man or woman, is extremely difficult. There are very few Apostle Pauls (one, really!). I started deputation as a single man, but I thank God that He gave me a wife before I reached Japan. I'm one who could not have made it.