Is it okay for women to preach but not pastor?

[TexasSky]

Scott,

You don't see it in yourself, but you really ARE acting just like that man. You are, at this point, far more concerned with the dogma you are clinging to than you are about whether or not the message of the lord is being given out.

Your priorities are reversed.

Your interpretation of the scripture involved is NOT the one most churches teach - you take it to the extremes the Phrasees took the orders of keeping the Sabbath Holy, and God corrected them for that kind of legalism.

You say you won't even read a book by a Christian woman? And you expect others to accept that your interpretation is correct?

Look at the story I shared above Scott. You've got one old man standing with you who even you can admit was acting childish, and who ALSO violated God's word by refusing to listen to the counsel of the elders and pastors of his church - yet, you set him above the elders and pastors as if he is a rightous martyr.

In the mean time - who was teaching the boys?

Should the wonderful ministry that Jeannie formed just be cast aside into the wind because the souls being reached were being reached by a woman? Children who were not familiar with the word of God, who were unchurched, in unchurched homes were coming to God's house to learn about God because a woman of God stepped forward, and you say God frowns on that? How can you NOT see how wrong that is?

 

[PreachTREE]

TS, Do both of us a favor and actually read my posts before you assume I am opposed to something that I am not.

I have never, not once, said that women should not teach boys. It can be difficult for many women since teenage boys tend to push boundaries but I HAVE NOT TAKEN A STAND AGAINST WOMEN TEACHING MALES WHO ARE NOT ADULTS.

Seriously TexasSky, are you reading all the posts?

 

[TexasSky]

PreachTree, at the very top of my post, I addressed it to Scott.

RE "males who are not adults." You also labled "over ten" as adult.

Which means, those young people between the age of 11 to 12 fell into Jeannie's position.

(Though I strongly disagree with the contention that an 11 year old male is an adult.)

Now, frankly speaking - I have a 13 year old son. He definately qualifies as a teenager, and that definately falls in the Youth Minister's authority. He isn't an adult. No matter how you cut it or slice it or dice it.

Where do you draw that line on who is an adult? Is it the 12 year olds? That was when Christ went into the temple. But or the 13 year olds? Maybe its 16? When they do the driver's license and get freedom? Is it when they are 18 and can vote and go to war? Or maybe its when they are 21 and can rent a hotel room or a car and can drink? Is it when they show maturity?

Goodness? If we can't agree on when they are adults? How can we know when to remove them from a female's influence?

Should we track their birthdays? Just in case we miss one? Let's start carding them at the door. If they are born before June 9, 1995, they can be in the class taught by women like Jennie. If they are born June 8, make em go with someone else!

My son's Sunday School teacher is an amazing woman of God who was asked to teach by the Youth Minister. The Minister also asked this amazing woman to speak in Church a few Sundays ago. He was talking about how God's people owe it to God to serve God, and how rewarding that is for a Christian in a spiritual sense. He asked her to speak. She is a high school principal and a Sunday School director and she'd helped lead more men to Christ than most Pastors I know. She does it with love, patience, God's word, and love She usurps no one's authority. She is not arrogant or vain or rude. She just does what God called her to do.

[ June 09, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

[PreachTREE]

umm....I quoted Scott J. yeah you need to read all the posts.

 

[Jimmy C]

Interesting to me that no one will adress all the prophetesses in the old and new testaments. do you all really think they did not proclaim thier messages to men and women? Do you see any condemnation of thier messages in scripture?

 

[God'sMusicGirl07]

Women are not allowed to hold a Christian postion above a man in a home.

My parents divorced when I was young. If my mom had not stepped up to the plate and been the Christian leader in my home I more than likely would not be in church or a Christian. I believe that the man should be the Christian leader in the home. However, I do not think it is wrong for a women to do it when a man is not present or willing.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Interesting to me that no one will adress all the prophetesses in the old and new testaments. do you all really think they did not proclaim thier messages to men and women? Do you see any condemnation of thier messages in scripture?

Of course they did.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
PreachTree, at the very top of my post, I addressed it to Scott.

RE "males who are not adults." You also labled "over ten" as adult.

Which means, those young people between the age of 11 to 12 fell into Jeannie's position.

(Though I strongly disagree with the contention that an 11 year old male is an adult.)

TS, This is the kind of thing that caused me to question whether you are reading my posts or just reading your bias over them.

I have never contended that boys over twelve were men.

Where do you draw that line on who is an adult?

When he is independent of his parents home.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Interesting to me that no one will adress all the prophetesses in the old and new testaments. do you all really think they did not proclaim thier messages to men and women? Do you see any condemnation of thier messages in scripture?

I have been out of town for a few days. Sorry.

There is suggestion that these women might have taught men in some capacity but not in the ministry of the church.

The scriptures do have to be reconciled with each other. First off, there is no indication of what the role of the OT women was except for Deborah's actions as a "civil" judge. We don't know if they predicted future events or forth-tellers. We are never told that they ministered to or taught men. We do know that women did not teach men in the synagogues.

If you will read back through my posts, you will see that I recognized that Priscilla helped disciple Apollos (referencing it more than once). I also stated that women could share the gospel with unsaved men.

But you still cannot dismiss that this scripture has a meaning and relevance. While there are some gray areas, the specific instance of a woman teaching men in something like SS or a group Bible study falls clearly into the black (no go) area.

If it does not mean this at a minimum then it has absolutely no meaning or relevance whatsoever. The role of a teacher is an authoritative role.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Scott,

You don't see it in yourself, but you really ARE acting just like that man.

TS, You have demonstrated that you are grossly unqualified to make this assessment. You don't know me and aren't even reading all of my posts yet you presume to demonize by virtue of what someone else did.

You are, at this point, far more concerned with the dogma you are clinging to than you are about whether or not the message of the lord is being given out.

That is untrue and for you to assert it with absolutely no proof is deception by implication on your part. Please stop it.

Your interpretation of the scripture involved is NOT the one most churches teach

I could care less what the majority says. I care what God says. You have yet to deal with that.

- you take it to the extremes the Phrasees took the orders of keeping the Sabbath Holy, and God corrected them for that kind of legalism.

If you had actually read my posts your false judgments might have been avoided.

You say you won't even read a book by a Christian woman?

History? Yes. Fiction? Maybe depending on doctrinal relevance. Doctrine and practice? No.

And you expect others to accept that your interpretation is correct?

I don't have the right to expect others to do anything. I am stating what I believe the scripture teaches. That's all. I would really rather you leave me out of it and just deal with what the Word says.

You may have to interpret things like the proper roles for women in the evangelizing of men, missions, private discipleship, and the teaching of older boys... and frankly, I would not spend a whole lot of time debating those fine line issues.

However a woman teaching a SS class, Bible Study, group discipleship assembly, etc. with men who are clearly adults is really not a matter of interpretation. This scripture clearly says it should not be done.

Look at the story I shared above Scott. You've got one old man standing with you ... yet, you set him above the elders and pastors as if he is a rightous martyr.

Did you even read this? I didn't take his side. If he had a conviction at all then he should have stepped away from the very start.

You can disagree with something and take a stand without being a trouble maker.

Should the wonderful ministry that Jeannie formed just be cast aside into the wind because the souls being reached were being reached by a woman? Children who were not familiar with the word of God, who were unchurched, in unchurched homes were coming to God's house to learn about God because a woman of God stepped forward, and you say God frowns on that? How can you NOT see how wrong that is?

TS, READ MY POSTS BEFORE MAKING RIDICULOUS POSTS LIKE THIS PARAGRAPH OR AT LEAST HAVE THE COURTESY OF ASKING WHAT I THINK RATHER THAN TELLING ME WHAT I THINK.

And yes, I am shouting at this point because you aren't debating in an honest manner.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Scott J:
The role of a teacher is an authoritative role.

There is a difference between a teacher and a pastor/teacher. A woman can teach but she is not a pastor/teacher. A judge would be more authoritative in society than a teacher.

Proverbs talks a lot about a mother and father teaching. "She opens her mouth in wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue." A teacher would typically give out information not call people to repentance as a pastor might.

 

[Scott J]

gb, Teaching is an authoritative role. There are situations where it is not contradictory to scripture for women to teach and others where it is.

In this very thread, I acknowledged having worked for a woman. I was loyal to her even as others, including some of the women, played office politics and got her fired.

I have been taught classes by women in college as well as during my public employment. When I was in the military, I acknowledged the legitimacy of female officers being in my chain of command.

Women have a role teaching their own children as well as non-adult males in the church. As indicated by the story of Priscilla, women have some type of legitimate role in the private discipleship of men.

However, this scripture means something. It can't just be discarded because it doesn't fit the 21st century western cultural paradigm.

While we could argue those gray areas of when a boy is old enough to call him a man or is it OK for women to establish a church effectively "leading" the new converts but I don't think you can argue that it is not a violation of this principle for a woman to teach a group of 30 something men in SS.

I also don't know how you could argue scripturally that TS example of Jeanne and the rebellous teacher is biblical. The woman was in a position to exercise authority over that man to include some type of discipline (even if only confronting him about rules violations).

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Women can indeed preach the Word. It was two women who were the first to bring the message that Christ. The woman at the well preached to the city. The four virgin daughters of Phillip prophesied. Nowhere in scripture do I find where any of these women were scolded for ministering the Word of God.

As to women pastors, there is written word forbidding that. 1 Timothy 3

 

[Linda64]

Being a pastor is much more than simply preaching. Anybody can preach--but not everybody is called to be a pastor. The office of pastor is outlined in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:1-6. Women are NOT called to PASTOR, but women can preach--meaning that she can share the Word, but not be in a leadership role in the church. That doesn't mean women cannot speak in the church, but she is not to usurp the authority of the man.

 

[RockRambler]

With some of the water-downed sermons I've heard, I'm appreciative of anyone, male or female, who will actually preach the gospel!!

 

[wwr 82]

We've got 2 women who teach Sunday School to children in our church and they do a great job. Maybe if more men would get off their hind end and volunteer they wouldn't have to teach.

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Well I don't know about that situation.If it even exsist except for places on the mission field. I believe even in that situation if we want to remain faithful to Scripture then one could pray that God sends a qualified man to do the teaching

It always strikes me as intriguing that women are encouraged to be missionary pastors. But, here in the 3d largest mission field in the world, a woman cannot teach a coed sunday school class.

I often wonder if that is why so many women want to be missionary preachers.

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Well I don't know about that situation.If it even exsist except for places on the mission field. I believe even in that situation if we want to remain faithful to Scripture then one could pray that God sends a qualified man to do the teaching

It always strikes me as intriguing that women are encouraged to be missionary pastors. But, here in the 3d largest mission field in the world, a woman cannot teach a coed sunday school class.

I often wonder if that is why so many women want to be missionary preachers.

 

[gb93433]

An excerpt I received from Jerry Rankin's office in 1998.

"We do not appoint missionaries to the specific role of pastors, but rather to the more specifically missionary role of extending the Gospel to new areas through church planting. There would be some exceptions to this such as those who go to serve English language congregations. We would not appoint women for such roles."

 

[ronthedisciple]

I am really concerned that I'm about to upset the apple cart here, so please, forgive me in advance.

I belong to an American Baptist Church of the Great Rivers Region. There a many churches in our region who have women as pastors. Our Area minister is a woman and has pastored in the past. I lived all but the last 5 years inthe south, and until I moved to Illinois, I didn't even know that whether women should be allowed to be pastors or not was even an issue.

I've spent the better part of an hour scanning through the first 6 pages of this topic, trying to find any reference to the Scriptural passages upon which those who are saying, "the Bible clearly prohibits women from pastoring." Frankly, it has become late, and I don't have time to scan through the rest to find the answer to my question.

I have had some fleeting discussions with my pastor (who is a man), who has been affiliated with the American Baptist Churches all his life, and his father before him (now retired from pastoring). I don't remember the specifics, but I do recall that the difference in opinion comes from the manner in which the Scripture passages in question are translated and interpreted.

I would appreciate being pointed to the passages, so that I may engage in a study of them myself. I have seen references to 1 Timothy, so I'll begin reading there; but I suspect that there are other passages involved, and would appreciate they being cited, so I don't have to read 66 books to find them.