Is it wrong to indulge the flesh in music?

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Joshua,

AMEN & AMEN!

Especially when you said to Aaron: " If you're looking at me, wondering why I lift my hands or sing the songs I sing, your eyes are on me... not on God."

It's good to see you on the board again!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: " Could either of you show me where I made such an assertion?

Didn't think so.

What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion. Don't blame me."

Have you read what you've written regarding "non-sensual" music,etc.,in the many threads ? Or,attacking SMM,Scott,& Eric B. because they beg to differ with you ?

You accuse Scott of having a "divine pipeline of revelation" when he mentioned how his fellow congregants worshipped from their hearts.

Meanwhile,in your many pronouncements,it appears that you have that same "divine pipeline" on what constitutes worshipping "In Spirit and in Truth".

Again,I ask you to look again at John 14:19-24, and tell me how this justifies YOUR interpretation of worshipping in the "Spirit & Truth" when the method of worshipping in the "Spirit & in Truth" is not defined in the passages ?

And, regarding your comment: " What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion."

I NEVER SAID THAT!

If you're accusing me of "drawing my own conclusion",I do so reading what you written in the past as well as the present. So,if my conclusions are wrong...

Then,you imply that I have a "carnal" mind!

Again,I ask you to look at Romans 2:1-3-

" 1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?"

If raising my hands or emotionally reacting to a song,hymn,or other piece of music makes me "carnal",SO BE IT!

I never equated "spiritual" with "sitting stiffly,listening to plain music". There's a time & place for sitting in quiet prayer and reflection in worship with "plain music",not everything has be a "worship frenzy".

And I don't care for "worship frenzy",never did ! Nor do I care for a "Stoic straightjacket" form of worship!

Also,in the light of Romans 2:1,does calling me "carnal" mean that you are also "carnal" ?

In Christ,

Dale

[ December 14, 2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Dale McNamee ]

 

[Eric B]

Well, if you go to the text, you will find that the weaker brother's conscience was to the meat itself as an evil thing. Not in the action of eating it.

If the meat itself was an evil thing, so would the act of eating it.

But, your argument is ridiculous. The divisions that the music issue has caused in the church (and it is the CCM people dividing the church, not the other way around) would qualify it, if the passage really applied, and you think it does.

The KJVO's say the same thing. Those favoring old ways see the new ways as "dividing the Church", but they are the ones "separating" over it (i.e. the division), and proof that they are the ones causing division is that they try to change those who do keep it to themselves. They are trying to stamp a whole range of music out of existance, and God does not call anyone to do this, especially when the criteria they are using is not even biblical to begin with.

It has to be a legitimate issue of "conscience", not culture, not strong preference, which you try to force on others.

What made the meat evil? Conscience or culture?

Because of the way this issue was pushed in the past, it did not appear to be an issue of conscience, but rather cultural bias, and this we are biblically not to yield to.

Show me. (I'm from Missouri. )

But this is where the music issue and that one depart. IF you say "that sound reminds me of my life in the world", then you are more in line with the meats principle. But if you make a general judgment of "that beat is universally bad, because it is from demonic Africa, and used by this modern society which has turned from our godly heritage; so regardless of whether you feel it has any bad effect or association on you, it is just bad because it doesn't measure up to the standard of the West", then that is a totally different ballgame. That is cultural; not conscience. It makes MAN the standard, and just pastes God's name on it.

Could either of you show me where I made such an assertion?

Didn't think so.

What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion. Don't blame me.

But how do we define what is "spiritual" or "carnal"? It always seems to boil down to it either making you want to dance, compared to making you want to sit and contemplate, or perhaps something equally mechanical, such as marching. If you deny this now, then it is you wo must change the definitions you have given us. And just because a carnal mind finds something "dry and dea" doesn;t mean that is it necessarily spiritual, just like just because they might find it pleasurable means it is carnal; or just because people find pleasure in something some carnal people find dry, that both they and their preference are automatically "spiritual". It's these assumtions that drive this whole issue.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Eric B.,

You wrote: "But how do we define what is "spiritual" or "carnal"? It always seems to boil down to it either making you want to dance, compared to making you want to sit and contemplate, or perhaps something equally mechanical, such as marching. If you deny this now, then it is you who must change the definitions you have given us. And just because a carnal mind finds something "dry and dead" doesn;t mean that is it necessarily spiritual, just like just because they might find it pleasurable means it is carnal; or just because people find pleasure in something some carnal people find dry, that both they and their preference are automatically "spiritual". It's these assumtions that drive this whole issue."

That's very great point!

But,Aaron is't the only one that holds to this position it seems to be taught in many conservative,fundamentalist churches as well.

Yet,Aaron has to describe what "spiritual","sensual",and "carnal" mean to him and him alone.

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
My worship does not fail the Scriptural test of wosrhip.

This is the very thing I'm trying to get out of you. What is that test? Don't just say "in spirit and in truth." That's too vague. Tell me what that means.

It is in accordance with every single aspect of what the Bible says, from Genesis all the way to Revelation. At no point does my worship contradict the Scriptures.

This is still vague.

My perspective of the Holy Spirit is completely in line with the Baptist Faith and Message...

If article 2.C were standing alone, you might get away with that. But the first article states that the Bible "...reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried."

Cannot show from Scripture?

That's right.

My worship doesn't contradict the teachings of the Word one iota. Unless you can show a concrete contradiction, how can you make such statements?

I'm the one asking. Unless you can show that what you do is what Christ commanded, how can you judge it as good? And saying God told you so Himself is neither a biblical nor Baptistic response.

 

[Trotter]

Unless you can show that what you do is what Christ commanded, how can you judge it as good? And saying God told you so Himself is neither a biblical nor Baptistic response.

Works both ways, Aaron. Can you show that your way of worship is what Christ commanded? No more than anyone else can.

Music style is nothing more than personal taste. Nothing in the bible speaks about music styles. As long as the music is to the honor of God, don't worry about it.

You want to preach hymns and nothing else? As long as you admit that it is your personal opinion, fine. But you cannot back it up any more than CCM supporters can.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
Worship is not between you or anyone, Aaron, whether in the open or not ... Even in a corporate setting, my worship has nothing to do with you.

Yes, it does. First, anything done in a corporate setting must be done to the edification of all. Paul was very clear about that. Nothing in corporate worship is private. In 1 Cor. 11 we're told that we must also consider the angels.

Paul wrote at length to the Corinthians about their demeanor in worship, and his instructions sound nothing like "This is between you and God." Quite the opposite really. Not only is it between me and angels and regular church members, it is also between me and one that "comes in," believer or unbeliever, 1 Cor. 14:23-25.

Let's take for the sake of example posture in worship. If you're looking at me, wondering why I lift my hands or sing the songs I sing, your eyes are on me... not on God.

If you raise your hand, unless all are raising their hands, you are drawing attention to yourself. The responsibility is on you. Not me.

THERE MUST BE A BALANCE.

Where is that written?

You must be sensitive to the fact that God may be dealing with me differently than with you... even at the same moment. An appropriate posture for you during "I Love You, Lord" may be one of praise end excitement. At that exact moment, mine might be more introspective, and the appropriate posture for me may be bowing.

No, the appropriate posture for both of us is one that is seemly and edifying to all. It won't be different for you than it is for me.

Look folks. All my extended family and inlaws are Pentecostal. Countless times I have been to church where they all pray simultaneously in loud (and I mean loud) voices, one or two might be prostrate on the floor weeping profusely, another one speaking in tongues (almost always a woman), and everyone just doing his own thing. Some dancing.

I have been to charismatic churches that make what I described above look like an Anglican service.

Don't think I am easily distracted, offended, caught of guard, or otherwise preoccupied with what another individual has done or might be doing, right or wrong. Personally, I was quite comfortable in each setting (and am still comfortable as I still visit from time to time).

I was not scared out of Pentecostalism to the Baptist church. It was a result of a systematic and disciplined approach to the Scriptures.

Here, where we are discussing ideas (I certainly hope no one is confusing his interaction on the BB with worship or even church) I can and will say, "This is right. That is wrong."

The premise that worship is simply between you and God is a fallacious and unscriptural assertion, and yet it is the primary force of the arguments of those advocating the modern trends in music and worship (I don't equate the two.)

I must be sensitive to know that my expression of worship might be distracting to another brother or sister. If we both reach out with sensitivity to our God, knowing that we are in a corporate setting and place, than the issue might be resolved.

Oh puke!

Here's how it's resolved. Obey the Scriptures. Keep your private devotions in your closet with the door shut. Keep your pubic devotions seemly and orderly, the judgment of which is not a private matter.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Aaron:
This is the very thing I'm trying to get out of you. What is that test? Don't just say "in spirit and in truth." That's too vague. Tell me what that means.

We must worship him with our rational spirit - that part of us that thinks, feels, and decides (from pneuma). We must also worship according to what is true of God (from alethia.) That's the boundaries of our worship, according to Christ. Christ in Matthew 15 said that we must not worship in vain, or fruitlessly. And that's what Christ said about worship. My worship fulfills every single one of these requirements: therefore, my worship style is acceptable in the eyes of God.

It is in accordance with every single aspect of what the Bible says, from Genesis all the way to Revelation. At no point does my worship contradict the Scriptures.

This is still vague.

What is vague about it? Nowhere in my worship, when I worship in spirit and in truth, do I go against any single command made concerning worship.

My perspective of the Holy Spirit is completely in line with the Baptist Faith and Message...

If article 2.C were standing alone, you might get away with that. But the first article states that the Bible "...reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried."

And Scripture has also testified that my worship is correct, whether I use an electric guitar or not.

My worship doesn't contradict the teachings of the Word one iota. Unless you can show a concrete contradiction, how can you make such statements?

I'm the one asking. Unless you can show that what you do is what Christ commanded, how can you judge it as good? And saying God told you so Himself is neither a biblical nor Baptistic response. [/QB]

That would be one thing - however, the Scripture itself testifies that my worship is acceptable, as it falls inside every single boundary set by Scripture. The Spirit testifying in my heart about its validity is an added bonus.

I've shown you the two basic commands that Christ gave regarding worship. I am square in the middle of those, so there is no contradiction.

 

[Eric B]

Yes, it does. First, anything done in a corporate setting must be done to the edification of all. Paul was very clear about that. Nothing in corporate worship is private. In 1 Cor. 11 we're told that we must also consider the angels.

Paul wrote at length to the Corinthians about their demeanor in worship, and his instructions sound nothing like "This is between you and God." Quite the opposite really. Not only is it between me and angels and regular church members, it is also between me and one that "comes in," believer or unbeliever, 1 Cor. 14:23-25.

If you raise your hand, unless all are raising their hands, you are drawing attention to yourself. The responsibility is on you. Not me.

The premise that worship is simply between you and God is a fallacious and unscriptural assertion, and yet it is the primary force of the arguments of those advocating the modern trends in music and worship (I don't equate the two.)

Oh puke!
Here's how it's resolved. Obey the Scriptures. Keep your private devotions in your closet with the door shut. Keep your pubic devotions seemly and orderly, the judgment of which is not a private matter.

But once again, as others have mentioned, it would still be up to yout to prove your style is right by these criterion. Of course, since the "Traditional" style was once nearly universal, and the modern styles had to be introduced into the midst of that; it is they, by breaking the pattern and introducing this new style, were "drawing attention to themselves", and thus causing division. And I guess even them using their new styles in their own churches,is no good, because it is still "public", and I guess if the oeple in the traditional churches were so against it, then God and the angels must be too, and it would make unbelievers or any of those traditional believers who happened to come in stumble.
So once again, the argument is one of seniority. And the godly old society of the past is the standard here. But then for the millionth time, their style was once new and just as offensive to earlier, plainer traditions. Of course, that's way before our time, yeah they may have thought that, but what we are opposing now is really, really bad, etc; so whatever was established in our lifetime; that is what should last forever. (Yet another man-centered way of reasoning!)

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
We must worship him with our rational spirit - that part of us that thinks, feels, and decides (from pneuma). We must also worship according to what is true of God (from alethia.) That's the boundaries of our worship, according to Christ.

That's better, but incomplete. (Strong's is only a starting place.) Though I agree that worship is intelligent and not ecstatic, Paul makes a distinction between the spirit and his understanding, 1 Cor. 14:15. It has more to do with the nature of a thing than with our rationality, John 4:24.

Though what you say here is better than what you've said in the past, you're still being vague. How is your worship "in spirit," and how does it reflect what is "true of God?"

Be specific. For instance, "I raise my hands and put my head back with my eyes closed, because..." (Not saying that's what you've done, just an example of what it means to be specific and not vague.)

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
And the godly old society of the past is the standard here. But then for the millionth time, their style was once new and just as offensive to earlier, plainer traditions.

Are you sure about this before I reply?

 

[Eric B]

Uh, if I've said it so many times before...
I wonder why you even ask this, now.

 

[superdave]

What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion. Don't blame me.

And thats a scriptural position how?

I don't think there is a disconnect between the two. Those who are carnal and view my worship ought to be filled with a desire to have what I do, they should not view it as dry and dead, if that is even possible, than the worship is not being done correctly, or in the right spirit. Whether I am singing a great hymn of the faith, or a scriptural worship song. The style makes little difference on this specific point, its really the heart attitude. Now, what we view as dry and dead might be up for discussion, but the fact that true worship can be dry and dead should not be, cause its not. You are well versed enough in the scriptures regarding music to know that.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
We must worship him with our rational spirit - that part of us that thinks, feels, and decides (from pneuma). We must also worship according to what is true of God (from alethia.) That's the boundaries of our worship, according to Christ.

That's better, but incomplete. (Strong's is only a starting place.) Though I agree that worship is intelligent and not ecstatic, Paul makes a distinction between the spirit and his understanding, 1 Cor. 14:15. It has more to do with the nature of a thing than with our rationality, John 4:24.</font>[/QUOTE]Not Strong's, but a real Greek dictionary. I Corinthians says that we must worship with both spirit AND understanding. We must be intellectually aware and must mentally agree with what is being sung.

Though what you say here is better than what you've said in the past, you're still being vague. How is your worship "in spirit," and how does it reflect what is "true of God?"

The words that I sing are testifying about the excellence of God, the brilliance of Christ, and the wonderful power of the Spirit. I sing about the character of God, as well as songs of thankfulness for what He has done. It is something that comes not only from my mind, but it is an honestly cry from my heart. My music lines up with the theological truths of Scripture - I have the benefit of being able to select each week's worship music, and I do not choose any music that cannot be completely backed up with Scripture.

Be specific. For instance, "I raise my hands and put my head back with my eyes closed, because..." (Not saying that's what you've done, just an example of what it means to be specific and not vague.)

I don't put my head back. There is no Biblical reference that I know of for such. When I raise my hands, I do so in complete accordance with Psalm 134 and 63. I recognize that my worship comes from my faith in God - and everything that is not of faith is sin, according to Romans 14. I am reminded of the scene in Nehemiah, where all the people worshipped and lifted their hands to God (8:6).

Anything, if done in an act of worship AND if it is found clearly in the Scriptures, is part of worship.

 

[Aaron]

Merry Christmas!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Uh, if I've said it so many times before...
I wonder why you even ask this, now.

Because this time you don't get to rest on this assumption. You need to provide some supporting evidence.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I Corinthians says that we must worship with both spirit AND understanding. We must be intellectually aware and must mentally agree with what is being sung.

Yes, we are to worship in the spirit and with our understanding, again making a distinction between the two, but rather than "agree" with what is being said, we are to judge the things that are being said.

Also, the we must do those things that are profitable to the understanding of OTHERS. So, you see, worship is not a private matter.

The words that I sing...

Stop. We aren't talking about the words. We're talking about the demeanor.

I am reminded of the scene in Nehemiah, where all the people worshipped and lifted their hands to God (8:6).

This is a good example. Is this really what is happening though? Do all they in your church lift their hands at the same time, or is it a few individuals here and there?

There's nothing in that passage remotely describing what you are using it to justify.

Anything, if done in an act of worship AND if it is found clearly in the Scriptures, is part of worship.

Is this the sentiment of Christ and the Apostles? You were the first to bring up John 4, and in there we see a change in the manner of worship under the New Testament, and it isn't simply that blood sacrifices aren't being offered anymore, but give that a few years. Folks will be biting the heads off of bats and doves at Christian Rock concerts and calling it worship.

What of the Burning of incense? Priestly garb? What of meal and drink offerings? I find those in the Scriptures. Are those legitimate forms of worship as long as my heart is in the right place?

Are these

 

[creemos]

Here is a thought...

Maybe you should ask all those saints who hop in their cars right after service ends and turn on their car radio appropriately tuned to the local Country Western or Oldies Rock station.

I love Larry Norman's quote: all that old music is fine... but, I ain't dead yet!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by superdave:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion. Don't blame me.

And thats a scriptural position how?
</font>[/QUOTE]1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

1 Peter 4:3-4 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

creemos said:
I love Larry Norman's quote: all that old music is fine... but, I ain't dead yet!

See above.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Aaron:
What of the Burning of incense? Priestly garb? What of meal and drink offerings? I find those in the Scriptures. Are those legitimate forms of worship as long as my heart is in the right place?

Are these

"Are these" is a typo.

See? I can admit that I make mistakes in the rare event that I do make one.