Drop John of Japan a pm...I've done so on many occasions. I don't know a better greek scholar here on the BB.
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Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?
- Thread starter zrs6v4
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Yes...with Christ, not prior to faith in Christ, WHEN we are in Christ. This is only through faith. Regerneration, justification, etc. are all simultaneous IN Christ.
Yes, I think it is a pretty much instantaneous thing. It's kind of like birth to breathing - there may be a little hitch in there but if a child is going to live, they generally will take their first breath almost immediately upon being born. My son was SCREAMING his head off - before he even was out of my stomach (c-section). So his birth precipitated his breathing - but it was almost an immediate response to the birth. That's how I see the "quickening", faith, salvation issue.
I don't think anyone responded to this post. Luke? How will you dispute these verses?
Yes, I think it is a pretty much instantaneous thing. It's kind of like birth to breathing - there may be a little hitch in there but if a child is going to live, they generally will take their first breath almost immediately upon being born. My son was SCREAMING his head off - before he even was out of my stomach (c-section). So his birth precipitated his breathing - but it was almost an immediate response to the birth. That's how I see the "quickening", faith, salvation issue.
Yea, but there is life before breath. There is life before faith as well.
It is absolutely impossible for it to be any other way. Dead people do not believe anything. They must be made alive BEFORE they can do anything spiritually. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE..."
He can't while he is natural. He can't. He must be made alive spiritually BEFORE he can receive the things of the Spirit of God. The Bible is clear on this.
On the other hand there is not a verse of Scripture in the Bible that says all of that happens in one instant. Not one verse.
Salvation is a process that begins in eternity past with election, continues with the sanctification of the spirit (regeneration), then there is repentance and faith and then there is the blood of Christ and eternal salvation.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that all that is involved in salvation takes place in a moment.
It's very simple guys. But you are not paying attention and you cannot get it until you understand a very plain and simple truth.
Regeneration and salvation are NOT the same thing. They are terms that CAN be used interchangeably since they are inextricably linked. But they also must be allowed to stand on their own merit as independent terms.
Regeneration is LIFE.
Salvation is deliverence (from hell, the wrath of God, sin, Satan, etc...)
The problem some of you are having is that every time you see the word regeneration you think of salvation.
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT ONE IS SAVED BEFORE FAITH.
We are saying that salvation is a process that in the life of the person begins with regeneration. Until then the natural man CANNOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD. The Bible is very clear on this. Then there is conviction via the Holy Spirit and the Word of God by which God creates faith in the heart of the sinner to believe. Then there is repentance and faith. Then there is the blood of Christ washing the sins away and eternal salvation.
Where is your scripture for this? If regeneration is life then what do you need salvation for? You already HAVE life.
This is made up mumbo jumbo.
It's not made up, Amy. It's what Calvinists have believed for centuries.
Regeneration is life- look it up.
Salvation is deliverance- look it up.
Words have meanings.
You and I do not get to come in and make salvation and regeneration the same thing just because we want to.
They are not the same thing.
And I gave you Scripture in the post to which you are referring when you ask for Scripture.
Yes, I think it is a pretty much instantaneous thing. It's kind of like birth to breathing - there may be a little hitch in there but if a child is going to live, they generally will take their first breath almost immediately upon being born. My son was SCREAMING his head off - before he even was out of my stomach (c-section). So his birth precipitated his breathing - but it was almost an immediate response to the birth. That's how I see the "quickening", faith, salvation issue.
Hey Ann. Watch this video by James White as he explains the grammatical layout of I John 5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"
The layout is that being born of God precedes believing that Jesus is Christ.
It is like saying- "Whosoever is breathing has been born."
Breathing is proof that birth has taken place. But birth had to precede breathing.
What post? This one?
I don't see any scripture. Could you post it again? I'm not going to look through 150 posts for it.
This is typical Calvinist eisegesis. You left out the majority of the definition and posted what you think will make your case. Here is the whole definition:
Regeneration is the spiritual transformation in a person, brought about by the Holy Spirit, that brings the individual from being spiritually dead to become a spiritually alive human being. Regeneration is another way of speaking about the new birth or the second birth or being born again.[1]
This subjective change worked in one's soul by the grace of God is variously designated in Scripture as a new birth, a resurrection, a new life, a new creature, a renewing of the mind, a dying to sin and living to righteousness, a translation from darkness to light, etc. In theological language, it is called regeneration, renovation, and conversion. These terms are often used interchangeably.[2]
According to Hodge's Systematic Theology, the word regeneration is used almost universally to refer to the instantaneous change from spiritual death to spiritual life. He says it is not used to designate "the whole work of sanctification, nor the first stages of that work comprehended in conversion, much less justification or any mere external change of state."[2] In calling it a spiritual resurrection—the beginning of a new life, Hodge adds, "Sometimes the word expresses the act of God. God regenerates. Sometimes it designates the subjective effect of his act" (emphasis added).
Now you go ahead and prove from scripture that someone can be born again and still need salvation.
This passage says nothing about having life before being saved. It ends with the meaning of the whole passage and that is that the unsaved cannot know the mind of God, only God knows His own mind and those who have the Spirit of God in them. It does not say that a man is unable to trust Christ for salvation. Or that a man is born again before he is saved.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Now you are starting to get it. The new birth and regeneration ARE the same thing. In fact the same word is used to signify both.
Now go back and read that with your new found knowledge I just imparted to you.:thumbs:
No, it says the natural man RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD..."
That is simple enough for a child to understand.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. It is so plain I cannot put it any plainer; I am forced to just repeat it.
Then it says- NEITHER CAN HE!!!
Not only DOES the natural man NOT receive the things of the Spirit of God BUT HE CAN'T!!!!
That is consistent with a host of other Bible passages including Romans 8:7 "Becaue the carnal mind is enmity with God; for it IS NOT subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN IT BE"!!!
It can't be. That is as plain as the nose on your face.
That is consistent with John 3 where Jesus said to Nicodemus- "Except ye be born again, you CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD."
You can't see it, you can't comprehend it. You are natural before you are born again. Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh- in other words it is natural. And the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. He has only a carnal mind which is at enmity with God and CANNOT be subject to the law of God. So he must be born again SO THAT HE CAN SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
That is consistent with I John 5:1 "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God..."
Who believes that Jesus is the Christ? Those that HAVE BEEN born of God.
This is the Bible Amy. Accept it or reject it.
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught regeneration precedes faith.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
-Sproul
Does it make a difference what they all thought...or what Scripture adequately says? Scripture states in a very plain manner we are made alive together WITH Christ. No amount of logic and twisting can lead anyone to any other conclusion but that spiritual life occurs WITH Christ...never prior. Being dead in our trespasses and sins (wait...I thought we were dead in Adam's?!?) means we were separated from God due to our sin, not that we are spiritual corpses needing to be made alive so we can be made alive together with Christ. Scripture is quite clear on this.
I agree but I do disagree with the idea that it can't be instantaneous. Of course election came way before but I think the entire salvation process DOES happen very quickly in succession in many cases. But then I know people who have said that they felt God drawing them for a time before they were saved so it doesn't have to be instantaneous all the time.
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