Is lying ever good?

[npetreley]

Don't you guys think this has gone on to the point of being ridiculous?
Our Lord does not lie or deceive.

It seems plain that He would have gone on His way if the 2 had not begged Him to stay. No deception there. How could you even think He would deceive anyone for any reason?

"if the 2 had not" - that's like supposing Judas didn't betray Jesus. Again, did Jesus have a sudden lapse of foreknowledge? He REALLY MEANT to keep going, but was surprised by their reaction and changed His mind?

Speaking of which, why did Jesus even appear in a form where He was not immediately recognized? Was that an accident? Something malfunctioned with the transformer ray when He decided to appear? "Oh shoot - now I understand why they're acting like they don't know me. I had the switch set on 'Anthony Zerbe' by mistake. Hey fellas, it's me - sorry!"

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Well, that's dishonest at the least because you know exactly what she's asking.

So, you simply justify your words, even though they're not truthful in regard to the question she asked.

So, what point of obfuscation, misdirection, and distraction does it be come a sin?

HoG,

Please don't accuse me of dishonesty. You do not know me. It has been more than 2 decades since I was able to see clear enough to drive a car, much less pay attention to a woman's features.

I can honestly say that for several months before my sight began dimming, I was given grace by my Lord to look beyond mere pictures and faces and look to the character. For that is where the true beauty of a person lies.

Now, I think you owe me an apology.

 

[webdog]

HoG,

Please don't accuse me of dishonesty. You do not know me. It has been more than 2 decades since I was able to see clear enough to drive a car, much less pay attention to a woman's features.

I can honestly say that for several months before my sight began dimming, I was given grace by my Lord to look beyond mere pictures and faces and look to the character. For that is where the true beauty of a person lies.

Now, I think you owe me an apology.

The one that said...

That is easy to figure out, Amy.

If they can make people believe that the Lord used deception, then that gives them an excuse to use deception.

...has the nerve to ask for an apology? To quote you: "You do not know me".

 

[Amy.G]

"if the 2 had not" - that's like supposing Judas didn't betray Jesus. Again, did Jesus have a sudden lapse of foreknowledge? He REALLY MEANT to keep going, but was surprised by their reaction and changed His mind?

Speaking of which, why did Jesus even appear in a form where He was not immediately recognized? Was that an accident? Something malfunctioned with the transformer ray when He decided to appear?

I do not understand why I'm being questioned like this just because I don't believe Jesus would deceive someone. Just what kind of argument are you trying to make?

I don't think the transformer ray malfunctioned. If you go back to verse 25 of this passage you'll see that it was the 2 men who had the malfunction.

Luke 24
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
God does not lie. God does not deceive. That's Satan's MO.

 

[npetreley]

25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

God does not lie. God does not deceive. That's Satan's MO.

So what you're saying is Jesus appeared as Jesus always appeared, albeit with a spear hole in His side, etc., and they were so slow of heart (dimwitted) they just didn't notice it was Him?

Look, I'm just reading what's there. Jesus appeared in a way (ostensibly on purpose) that He was not immediately recognized. He ACTED like He was going to keep going. If you want to call that deception, that's your label, but I attach the word deception to evil intent. Maybe that's not the true definition, but that's generally how I see it. I don't see evil intent here, but I do see that Jesus intentionally disguised Himself, and pretended to keep going.

Sorry, but I just read it, believe it all happened the way it's described, and Jesus had a good reason for doing what He did, just the way He did it.

Oh - and as to God not deceiving, I guess that doesn't include delusion?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&verse=11&version=50&context=verse

2 Thess 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

 

[Amy.G]

So what you're saying is Jesus appeared as Jesus always appeared, albeit with a spear hole in His side, etc., and they were so slow of heart (dimwitted) they just didn't notice it was Him?

Look, I'm just reading what's there. Jesus appeared in a way (ostensibly on purpose) that He was not immediately recognized. He ACTED like He was going to keep going. If you want to call that deception, that's your label, but I attach the word deception to evil intent. Maybe that's not the true definition, but that's generally how I see it. I don't see evil intent here, but I do see that Jesus intentionally disguised Himself, and pretended to keep going.

Sorry, but I just read it, believe it all happened the way it's described, and Jesus had a good reason for doing what He did, just the way He did it.

Ok, but what does this have to do with the OP? Is lying ever good? Are you saying that it was good that Jesus lied? Why are we arguing about this? They didn't recognize Jesus. I don't know why. But why would Jesus deceive (not my word) them about going farther?

 

[npetreley]

Ok, but what does this have to do with the OP? Is lying ever good? Are you saying that it was good that Jesus lied? Why are we arguing about this? They didn't recognize Jesus. I don't know why. But why would Jesus deceive (not my word) them about going farther?

Sorry, this had nothing to do with "lying is good". I got off on a tangent because people were denying that the text says what it says. It's obvious Jesus disguised Himself and pretended to keep going, and I'll be damned (and I'm afraid that's quite literal) if I'm going to change what it says because I'm afraid the plain reading of the text would tarnish God's image. In addition to this passage, it's clear (from passages like 2 Thess 2:11) that God DOES use things like delusion to accomplish His good pleasure. I have no problem with that. I'm not going to talk back to God and dictate what He can or cannot do to accomplish His will. Just writing that makes me feel incredibly silly.

 

[npetreley]

What girl? I have never seen a girl who was ugly.

I'm sure I can introduce you to a few.

I do not look at the outside, but what is on the heart.

I'm not talking about the outside.

 

[Bismarck]

What is "false witness"?

Also, don't forget that the Lord told David to lie. When David said, "I can't go up there, he'll kill me." The Lord said, "Just tell 'em that you came to worship."

Also, David lied to get Goliath's sword. (OK, it was more an obfuscation than a lie; he had been anointed king, so in that sense, he was king, but he had not ascended the throne.)

Also, the commandment is not to murder.

The Lord tells people to kill plenty of times.

Bearing false witness in a trial before the Levites amounts to lying, in such a way, that Justice is thwarted.

But Jehu's lie was such that Justice was done.

Likewise, "Never shalt thou murder!" is an injunction against killing someone wrongfully, because they cut in front of you on the highway and/or you wanted to steal their car. That is a case of homicide => injustice.

But, the Ba'alists were enemies of Almighty God who were aggressively attacking (if covertly, subtly, through subversion) Godliness on Earth, and trying to lure others into satan's camp. Eradicating the Ba'alists => justice.

After all, "Never shalt thou murder!" is the 6th Commandment (Ex 20:13). "Never shalt thou bear false witness against your neighbor!" is the 9th Commandment (Ex 20:16). But the Ba'alists were breaking the 1st Commandment ("Never shalt thou have other gods before Me!"), and wittingly and willingly luring others to do the same.

May I humbly offer that the "underlying principal" is one of social justice.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Those who God sends strong delusions to are those who are left after the rapture. Those people had already denied Christ. They refused the love of the truth.

That has nothing to do with Christ walking down the road. Christ was not deceptive in the least. Had those men not constrained Him to tarry (forced Him against that which He purposed to do), had they not urged Him to tarry ( that is what compel means), He would no doubt continued on His journey.

They did not just say 'Come on in', they urged Him.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not going to talk back to God and dictate what He can or cannot do to accomplish His will.

That, we can agree on!

 

[npetreley]

Those who God sends strong delusions to are those who are left after the rapture. Those people had already denied Christ. They refused the love of the truth.

Okay, so what you're saying is it's okay for God to send a strong delusion as long as the people deserve it. Or, in short, God never does it, except when He does it.

Speaking of what they deserve, let me ask you this: Did Job deserve the torture that satan put him through? Please think carefully before you answer that. Or at least re-read Job first.

 

[Bismarck]

I guess Abraham didn't make it into the Kingdom...

What about YHWH-God's boundless Mercy?

 

[npetreley]

That, we can agree on!

Amen! Good to end on that note!

 

[Bismarck]

You can't say Rahab repented, what happened to her?

Esther didn't lie, she just failed to include in her invitations that she was Jewish. The king shoulda known already who/what he was marrying, but he was to busy playing king to worry about more than whether or not she had a pretty face.

I thinketh the difference between a "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" type lie and a lie such as Rahab's is the harm the lie could potentially bring. It isn't going harm my husband if I tell him I like his blue truck when I'd rather he'd have bought a black one. It's certainly not going to hurt him if he tells me I look fine in a dress I think make me look fat. It didn't harm the soldiers who came looking for the spies when Rahab sent them all the way down to the river looking for guys that were hidden on her roof.

However, if I tell my neighbor I saw her husband with another woman and it is not true or I don't clarify that I saw him at church talking to the children's church leader while picking up their daughter, THAT is going to cause real harm.

Christ said love God and love thy neighbor as yourself on those two hang the law. That gives us a pretty good idea of how to determine the appropriate use of deception/lies and the inappropriate use of bearing false witness.

With all due respect, this is categorically not true (!). By misleading Jericho's defenders, she helped the Israelites conquer Jericho and put those hapless defenders to death:

Joshua 6:20:21
20So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. 21Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.​

I understand what you are saying, but this specific example of yours is way wrong.

 

[Bismarck]

1 Kings 22:21 (KJV) And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1 Kings 22:23 (KJV) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The lying spirit was not put in the mouths of God's people, but in the mouths of Ahab's prophets. These were not prophets who were of God, but Ahab's prophets.

My assertion that God does not tell His people to lie stands.

This is, perhaps, a subtle point, but HBSMN is right. Ahab's false Ba'al-prophets were made to lie = sinners made to sin. Ahab being forced to believe them = sinner made to sin.

It is like YHWH hardening the Pharaoh's heart to bring about the Exodus, yes? The Pharaoh was a sinner, and YHWH-God seems to have exascerbated that sin to bring about Pharaoh's destruction and Israel's liberation...

but, although Pharaoh's heart was hardened to make Pharaoh sin, and Ahab's false Baal prophets made to lie, "God's Crew" doesn't lie/sin (lie = sin, as HBSMN proved w/ Rev 21:27).

 

[Bismarck]

Amen x 10^20

Please cite the specific scriptures.

 

[Bismarck]

It took me a minute to figure it out, but I used the correct event with the wrong name in my haste to head out to work.

But, Menagerie hit the nail square on the head here with my intent in asking the question, "What is 'bearing false witness'"?

If you tell the ugliest girl you've ever seen that she's pretty, I doubt seriously that you'll be in big trouble over it.

But, if you cry "rape!" just to get attention, I think you'll have to answer for it.

You doubt? Upon what authority?? Ahh, yes, your own "instinct", your own "opinion" and "sense" of what "should" be.

But what does Scripture say?

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in YHWH with all thy heart, and lean not upon thine own understanding​

YHWH-God is Boss. YHWH-God makes the rules. You obey them.

You do not think.

You do not question.

You do not say "but" or "what about this/that".

You just do, and be grateful to YHWH-God for creating this Universe and you.

That is what it means to submit to Will of YHWH-God.

 

[Bismarck]

Joshua 6:17 17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

KJV Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

KJV James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab and all that were in her house was spared death on that day when the city was destroyed.

Again, Scripture nowhere tells God's people to lie. Why do you people try to justify sin by reason of the Word of God? There is no justification for sin, only judgment.

Rahab hid the spies. She wrongfully lied to those looking for them. If they were in God's will coming to her house, God would certainly have protected them without man's lying.

In answer to your question, Alcott...

Nowhere in Scripture can I find that her name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Certainly she is mentioned in the Great Hall of Faith, but Scripture does not say she is in the Lamb's Book of Life.

It may be worth mentioning that, at the time of her lies, Rahab was not an Israelite = God's Crew. She was a pagan/heathen who fought Canaanite sin with sin (her lies).

Only afterwards did she, according to tradition, marry Joshua and become an Israelitess.

 

[Bismarck]

So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther,
but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
Luke 24:28-29 (ESV)

Was there an attempt at deception by our Lord?
Was he lead by the Spirit?

Rob

"He acted as if he were going farther" just means he made the motions of walking, etc, that indicated he was planning to continue on. Here is the way it reads in Young's Literal Translation:

Luke24:28 And they drew near to the village where they were going, and *he* made as though he would go farther.

There is no deception here, just the Messiah being flagged down by those wanting to see him.