Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[TCassidy]

1 John 9-13 Nasb
9 There was which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

And how does that scripture support your thesis?

 

[TCassidy]

Show me where scripture states men are total depraved. You haven't yet, you just make claims that you have.

I just posted the scripture that man is fallen in sin. What part of that scripture don't you understand?

Nothing you've said so far proves one thing in Calvinism.

I am not defending Calvinism. I am defending the bible when it teaches that man is fallen in sin.

 

[TCassidy]

Total depravity claims man is unable to respond.

And there is your problem. You don't have a clue what Total Depravity is, nor do you have any understanding at all of the effects of Total Depravity. Lost people choose every day.

 

[TCassidy]

Your question doesn't prove your point what's the matter can't you prove total depravity with scripture?
MB

See post #109.

 

[TCassidy]

It says nothing about being regenerated first. No scripture says any such thing.

See post #109.

 

[utilyan]

Paul and peter both quoted Isaiah though, and agreed with him that we are in sin, do not seek God, and will die in our sins!

Quoting Old Testament doesn't magically make things new doctrine. They quoted those things to point out the past failures of Israel. None of those things stated Israel fails all the time.

If they needed new doctrine they would have held council as they did in response to requiring circumcision.

I can quote old testament when things are just fine and make God happy, that doesn't magically equate that all things make God happy, just because I quote old testament.


We can even up the stakes, suppose Paul was indeed establishing brand new doctrine clearly spelling it out something comparable to total depravity, which he is not doing at all. And we can even have Paul write out the entire TULIP in a chapter and say this is doctrine this is the way it is. So imagine the tulip written out word for word in a chapter in the bible.

It would still far short as being doctrine of the faith.

There would be no divine authority to back up. Compared to Peter for example who had a vision of God and was directed to establish doctrine.


Bottom line Paul wasn't teaching anything new, The other option is The idea that Jews believe in total depravity would be a joke and that is what you would have to sell.

In the old testament God turned a person into salt for sinning, that doesn't mean everyone who sins is going to turn to salt instantly. I just can't magically apply things from a past event on to you.


All you did is catch Isaiah at the time pointing out their own misbehavior, which is the entire point that Jews have nothing over Gentiles when it comes to doing wrong. Paul mentioning this doesn't automatically apply it to all human kind.

 

[thatbrian]

God indeed ordains all things, and men act freely. These things are compatible.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20)

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Deleted by author.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He is a reformed/Calvinist!

As I said, he is a kook

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Look, I have had enough of your self-righteous, better-than-you, pompous remarks! It is no wonder that the Christian Church suffers are great lack of love and compassion, which is exactly what Dr Peter Masters from London said about the Reformed/Calvinists/Particular Baptists, and he is SO RIGHT! The nun in the local RC church has more love and care for the lost than you guys! Its best that we part company again and not comment on each others threads. You have the knack to bring out the worst in people! Seriously, you need HELP!

Thank you for revealing your real agenda and it’s source!

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Of course calling peop

I've read the Bible many times in my life and I can tell you there is no total depravity in scripture.
Total depravity claims man is unable to respond. He can't hear or see the truth. Right now there is a boat load of Calvinist that can't understand the simple truth. The Bible says clearly we can hear.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
The Bible tells us clearly that the Gentiles can and do hear.
Making total depravity false doctrine.
Prove it wrong with clear scripture that needs no explanation. Don't hand me a bunch of verses that clear;y do not back up total depravity. Not one of you have proven total depravity.
MB

What do you think this is:



Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”

Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

1 John 1:8,10 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”

Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.”

Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.

Ephesians 2:3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:27 - John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.”

Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

The word of God says men are able to repent and believe through the preaching of the gospel. Romans 10:17

It says nothing about being regenerated first. No scripture says any such thing. The power is found in the gospel Romans 1:16

Perhaps you missed these scriptures?

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This next verse says it all. We are saved by grace "And this is NOT YOUR own doing, it is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

 

[Revmitchell]

Perhaps you missed these scriptures?

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This next verse says it all. We are saved by grace "And this is NOT YOUR own doing, it is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Context is important so you do not take verses out of context and misinterpret and misapply them. You might want to check on those contexts and avoid eisegesis.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Context is important so you do not take verses out of context and misinterpret and misapply them. You might want to check on those contexts and avoid eisegesis.

Stop harassing Katarina!

The Entire Word is her context.

Talk about eisegesis! Isn't this what you do when
you don't agree with someone?!!

TCassidy doesn't agree with you. Do you
claim that he is guilty of eisegesis?

 

[MB]

I just posted the scripture that man is fallen in sin. What part of that scripture don't you understand?

I found no such scripture in your last post. Man is a sinful creature and even after being saved is still a sinful creature. He can't escape it, it is still in his nature.
I do not deny man cannot go to heaven with out Salvation. However Total depravity does not exsist. Men who are not save do righteous things obey at least some of the Laws of God, Therefore man is not totally depraved.. Man's spirit is not totally dead. Dead to God yet still very much alive.
can the natural man be dead spiritually, yet still live?. Not to mention How is it that God an all knowing God. ever make mistakes when scripture clearly says;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Who lied was it Paul or God
How about?
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Still you insist on your total depravity that man cannot hear . Or understand.
How about Aggripa Acts 25 How was it he could be almost persuaded by Paul if in fact he could not hear what Paul was saying? Did God open his mind temporarily?.

I am not defending Calvinism. I am defending the bible when it teaches that man is fallen in sin.

As I said before I admit man is a sinful creature. Yet man is not unable to hear the gospel. Man hasn't fallen anywhere because he was never above sin in the first place. After Adam; Every man has sinned and come short of the glory of God. Adam and Eve committed the first sin and changed the world as they knew it.. Because of their punishment. Yes their sin affected the rest of man kind. All sin has an effect on all of man kind

 

[TCassidy]

Yet man is not unable to hear the gospel.

I didn't say he is.

Man hasn't fallen anywhere because he was never above sin in the first place.

God created Adam in innocence.

After Adam; Every man has sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Yes, we all know that.

Adam and Eve committed the first sin and changed the world as they knew it.

Yes, we all know that.

Yes their sin affected the rest of man kind. A

Yes, we all know that.

All sin has an effect on all of man kind

Yes, we all know that.

However Total depravity does not exsist.

So, again, I ask, for the 3rd time, what part of man has not been affected by sin and is still perfectly sinless and able to go to heaven on its own merits? The body? The soul? The spirit? Which one has not been affected by the fall and remains in sinless perfection.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7 PM Pacific.

 

[thatbrian]

A mans will, when it comes to coming to Christ, is what limits him. He cannot because he will not. There is no escaping this. He must be set free in order to even will coming to Christ.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Context is important so you do not take verses out of context and misinterpret and misapply them. You might want to check on those contexts and avoid eisegesis.

This is called avoiding, dodging, ducking, diverting and obfuscating.

If you are a 'rev' you should be quite familiar with these scriptures.

I invite you to prove any eisegesis on my part.

 

[TCassidy]

So, again, I ask, for the 3rd time, what part of man has not been affected by sin and is still perfectly sinless and able to go to heaven on its own merits? The body? The soul? The spirit? Which one has not been affected by the fall and remains in sinless perfection.

Earth to MB! Earth to MB. Come in please. Earth to MB. Earth to MB.

Still waiting for your answer, MB.