Pastor Larry, specifically it would be the evangelical team that I can't do right now. It would take me away from my family yet another night a week. Also, my personality is one of such that it would be extremely difficult for me to knock on doors. Just thinking about it panics me. However, I have shared the gospel with my neighbors and look for other opportunities to witness. I've seen the Lord working in my life and He's given me much more confidence but I'm not at the point where I can witness in such a bold manner. Are you saying it's an act of disobedience to the Lord if I don't participate in this particular program?
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Is my church overstepping or not?
- Thread starter Hawnter
- Start date
Bethelassoc
Member
My point being that what are these things that are to be done that constitutes doing the right thing?
Some list rules outside of scripture as legalism. But if that is contrary to another, who is doing the right thing?
Some list rules outside of scripture as legalism. But if that is contrary to another, who is doing the right thing?
P.L.
I do not wish to argue with you further. It is apparent that I will not change your mind with whatever argument I offer, and you will not change my mind with whatever argument you offer.
Frankly, I've got more important things to do than engage in a stalemate.
God Bless You.
I do not wish to argue with you further. It is apparent that I will not change your mind with whatever argument I offer, and you will not change my mind with whatever argument you offer.
Frankly, I've got more important things to do than engage in a stalemate.
God Bless You.
Bethelassoc
Member
Hawnter:
I believe that you have an obligation to your family. Don't worry about the little things, God will provide the avenue that He wants you to work.
If it helps any, I have no problem with you cutting back.
Enjoy your family.
I believe that you have an obligation to your family. Don't worry about the little things, God will provide the avenue that He wants you to work.
If it helps any, I have no problem with you cutting back.
Read through this thread and count them. I don't remember seeing anyone who says that a believer should not be doing these things. Would you say these things are things a believer should be doing or should not be doing?
I would talk to your pastor about that. As far as personality goes, we all must be willign to get outside of our comfort zones for the sake of the gospel. IT gets easier, although I hate it with a passion. Knocking on doors is simply not the most effective way in this generation to accomplish evangelism.
But I would talk to your pastor. I can understand the problem with another night out. See what he says.
Not at all. I am saying it is an act of disobedience to God if you are not evangelizing and sharing your faith with people.
The Scriptures define what is to be done
1. Every person is to have a growing relationship with God.
2. Every believer is to be engaged in personal spiritual disciplines of prayer, Bible study, and learning.
3. Every believer is to be a vital part of the local church.
4. Every believer is to be actively engaged in ministry to the body.
5. Every believer is to be engaged in evangelism for the purpose of glorifying God by building the church.
6. Every believer is to be actively worshipping in the local body.
These are all biblical standards that God has set up. This is what we should be doing. I am not suggesting it is limited to this. There are certainly other things. But it is no more than this.
As I say, too often we are hung up on somebody telling us what to do. We get so bent out of shape that we forget to look at see that these things are what Scripture tells us to do.
The Scripture is the mandate.
I wasn't aware there was any argument going on. We are discussing these things. I am simply trying to focus on teh real issues involved and get us talking about Scripture.
We need to be willing to look past our personal preferences and see what Scripture actually says and what scriptural principles are involved.
And???? How is this relevant?? </font>[/QUOTE]It seems to me that Law is synonymous with this Church's Rules which mandate behavior, and Spirit is synonmous with Grace which leads to voluntary works.
Give me the Church of Grace any day.
j_barner2000
Member
Pastor Larry... I think the difference is in a man telling his church members what they will do based upon what he beleives is the best method, rather than on Biblical principles. My pastor has trusted us to develop the "methods" that are best suited to our particular ministries and strengths.. not what he dictates. ( I am an intern (surrendered July of 02 to pastoral service) and the other pastor is basically a trainee too. So perhaps he is teaching us to develop a ministry. )
I see that yes there were certain things that we are told to do as Christians... However the particular method of making disciples etc were not so clearly defined. I am not disagreeing that there should be standards... We just need to be careful that the standards imposed are Biblical and not additions. Telling them that they will follow a particular method that is not called out or implied in scripture is addition. Do I make sense?
I see that yes there were certain things that we are told to do as Christians... However the particular method of making disciples etc were not so clearly defined. I am not disagreeing that there should be standards... We just need to be careful that the standards imposed are Biblical and not additions. Telling them that they will follow a particular method that is not called out or implied in scripture is addition. Do I make sense?
Bethelassoc
Member
LP:
Is the question more like, "Do I think I should be doing everything that you think a Christian should be doing?"
Is that what God commanded?
Did God command women to wear skirts/dresses only? Would it make a woman a better witness if she did? How?
Where does it command us to never miss a church service?
Did God say "Thou Shall not go to a movie?", etc.
As a Christian, I am a child of God, saved by His grace. Never does it say that I have to sign a piece of paper to prove my loyalty to a building. If that's the case, then the elders of that building are not sure of their brethren.
The fact that I've proven myself to my church that I'll stand for them even when things look bleak should be all the confirmation they need.
Doing the right thing? Allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our hearts is doing the right thing.
Is it that cut and dry? Which things? How fine do we split the hair?
Is the question more like, "Do I think I should be doing everything that you think a Christian should be doing?"
Is that what God commanded?
Did God command women to wear skirts/dresses only? Would it make a woman a better witness if she did? How?
Where does it command us to never miss a church service?
Did God say "Thou Shall not go to a movie?", etc.
As a Christian, I am a child of God, saved by His grace. Never does it say that I have to sign a piece of paper to prove my loyalty to a building. If that's the case, then the elders of that building are not sure of their brethren.
The fact that I've proven myself to my church that I'll stand for them even when things look bleak should be all the confirmation they need.
Doing the right thing? Allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our hearts is doing the right thing.
Bethelassoc
Member
These 6 points are not the issue here. It's the "man"ufactured mandates that are placed upon a Christian that causes the problem.
Back to the signing, why should one sign a paper to more or less prove loyalty to their church?
Pastor Larry,
You wrote - "Did you realize that Rick Warren, according to his book, has a higher standard than this for his members -- not his ministers and workers but his members!!!"
Can you give me the Reference? Title - Page No. etc. I don't remember reading this.
Thanks
You wrote - "Did you realize that Rick Warren, according to his book, has a higher standard than this for his members -- not his ministers and workers but his members!!!"
Can you give me the Reference? Title - Page No. etc. I don't remember reading this.
Thanks
[/q]It seems to me that Law is synonymous with the OT Mosaic Law which was unable to give life to enable obedience. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit who gives life which enables obedience. That is what Paul is talking about here. Paul himself set down "rules" of conduct for the church. He was not "Spirit less" or "Law like." Instead, he insisted that obedient living is the norm.
[qutoe][qb]Give me the Church of Grace any day. [/QUOTE]I agree. And I would argue that those issues of service are as Grace filled as any thing else.
I don't think your verses address this issue. Paul was talking about something else.
Not knowing this pastor I have no idea. But on the previous page, I outlined the biblical principlse involved. So I don't think we can say that these things are unbiblical or are not based on biblical principles.
Let me ask it this way: Which of those things is not based on a biblical principle?? (Maybe that will help us here).
Bethelassoc
Member
Sorry Pastor Larry:
I called you LP instead of PL.
I called you LP instead of PL.
It seems to me that these six points are the issue. These six things were drawn right out of that list. Compare the list to these six things and you will see it. There are some things on that list that, as I said, would not be issues for me. I omitted those from this list based on my personal preference.
I didn't see anything about loyalty to the church being discussed. I look at a procedure like this and see a pastor who wants to make sure that 1) the people in ministry are putting themselves in a good position to grow; 2) the people in ministry know what is expected of them so that there are no surprises; 3) the people in ministry are committed to being a part of that ministry; and 4) the people in that ministry are agreeing to be held accountable.
AGain, I can't help but think we are overlooking the issue here. We are getting bogged down in minutae.
To me, the issue is: Does the NT church have the precedent to set standards for those involved in ministry of teh local church?? EVerything in the NT screams "YES."
Is it helpful for the ministers in a local church to know what is expected? Absolutely.
Does the church have a vested interest in making sure that the people ministering are qualified to minister?? Absolutely.
When I look at this list (with a few exceptions), that is what I see. This is a matter of people agreeing to put themselves in good position for spiritual growth (by daily quiet times, attendance at services); agreeing to biblical obedience in evangelism (though I would change the form of that evangelism); agreeing to know what is going on in their ministry and beign a part of it (attending meetings, etc). Folks, this is just common sense stuff, it seems to me.
PDC pp. 321-22 is the membership covenant. After that he addresses more fully these ideas in Developing Mature Members.
He says on page 344, "It is amazing to me that many community organizations require more from participants than local churches do."
He addresses these issues in some depth. Though I do not agree with him on all of it, I think he has a pretty good discussion on a surface level.
His point is that when we explain why we are asking for commitments, they will be able to commit. It seems to me in this discussion, that people are hung up on rules.
But if we present the daily quiet time as a time to know the God your teaching about and ministering for, then it takes added significance.
It we say that attending church services is a time to encourage and worship with those who share our passion and to demonstrate to our students what it means to be a Christian, then we are closer to the "why" of doing it. Insisting on church attendance is not trying to control people's lives. It is about the betterment of the body.
We could give some very good reasons why these commitments are necessary and biblical and why accountability in them is necessary. But some people just seem not to want any accountability. I can assure you that I have standards about how many services I have to attend to minister here at this church. I have standards about what I have to do. And I, in Baptist polity, am not a super saint. In the body, all are equal in their spirituality.
Bethelassoc
Member
Okay. I can see that.
j_barner2000
Member
the issue I have is dictating method. in my town door to door soliciting ( and yes invititing folks to church is included) is prohibited and finable. I guess it is dictating that you must be there every time the doors are open etc. door to door evangelism is required. We have a gospel jam session on Monday nights and AA meetings mon and Thur Wed is Bible study/Prayer meeting..... Sat night worship and Sun morn Bible study and worship. I also work a full time job and am doing seminary classes. I teach on Sunday morning and spend an hour a day in prep to teach and 2 a day doing school work. I also am director of children's ministries and spend an average of 5 hours a week managing that duty.
If I was required to be there every time the doors were open and have time to prepare for Sunday School and go door to door evangeilzing and still make my visits to homes of kids I have in children's church and spend time ministering to my own family and earn a living and have an effective personal devotional life and ......
I guess the thing is there are basics ... personal prayer, devotions, evangelism, etc which are Biblical... I do not disagree to being dedicated or committed to the basics.
Wearing dresses, being at church each and every time the doors are open, (IE jam sessions or AA meetings, Bible study, prayer meetings etc. you should be there) door to door knocking etc. are extras. I do have issues when we are expected to be dedicated to the extras...Does that clarify where I am coming from.
[ January 08, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: j_barner2000 ]
If I was required to be there every time the doors were open and have time to prepare for Sunday School and go door to door evangeilzing and still make my visits to homes of kids I have in children's church and spend time ministering to my own family and earn a living and have an effective personal devotional life and ......
I guess the thing is there are basics ... personal prayer, devotions, evangelism, etc which are Biblical... I do not disagree to being dedicated or committed to the basics.
Wearing dresses, being at church each and every time the doors are open, (IE jam sessions or AA meetings, Bible study, prayer meetings etc. you should be there) door to door knocking etc. are extras. I do have issues when we are expected to be dedicated to the extras...Does that clarify where I am coming from.
[ January 08, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: j_barner2000 ]