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is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

Dr. Walter

New Member
The problem is that the Catholics believe that just by changing the name of something, it changes the definition.

If it meets the definition of worship, then it's worship, no matter whether you call it worship, veneration, or "honor".

Well said! The Catholic theologians are like the Pharisees of Christ's day - they interpret the scriptures by the traditions of the fathers and redefine everything to suit their vain traditions. The are a cult in every sense of the term.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oi! What about the Orthodox?!

Anyway, it's more accurate to say they believe in faith + sacraments rather than faith + works

Matt, what we have here is the ever present circle of mischief......attack RC's, attack Calvinists, attack other denoms not in keeping with Baptists, go back to RC's.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Matt, what we have here is the ever present circle of mischief......attack RC's, attack Calvinists, attack other denoms not in keeping with Baptists, go back to RC's.

The gospel is very simple! It is all about what Christ did for sinners not about what sinners do for Christ. Justification is through faith in the gospel not faithfulness to the gospel. Good works are the consequences of regeneration/justifcation/conversion not the means to obtain regeneration/justification/conversion. Regeneration/justification/conversion obtain the gift of heaven whereas works obtain present blessings and rewards in heaven. Very simple. Either you believe it or you do not - very simple. Those who believe it are going to heaven and those who don't are not going to heaven - it is just that simple.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the characteristics of a cult is that its members do not have freedom of conscience ie they are not free to disagree with their leadership. That certainly does not characterise the RCs I know (some of whom are even priests), who freely disagree with many of the pronouncements of the Vatican (eg: on women priests, contraception, homosexuality, etc). For example, my son goes to a Catholic school. One of the schoolyard dads is a good friend of mine and a devout Catholic. He's had a vasectomy and thinks the Pope has quite simply got it wrong on this issue.He states that quite openly and his priest knows about this yet is quite happy to offer him communion and treat him in all other respects as a full-fledged member of the Catholic community in his parish.

So, not a cult in my view.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The gospel is very simple! It is all about what Christ did for sinners not about what sinners do for Christ. Justification is through faith in the gospel not faithfulness to the gospel. Good works are the consequences of regeneration/justifcation/conversion not the means to obtain regeneration/justification/conversion. Regeneration/justification/conversion obtain the gift of heaven whereas works obtain present blessings and rewards in heaven. Very simple. Either you believe it or you do not - very simple. Those who believe it are going to heaven and those who don't are not going to heaven - it is just that simple.

Thanks Mark for proving my point.:laugh:
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
Matt, what we have here is the ever present circle of mischief......attack RC's, attack Calvinists, attack other denoms not in keeping with Baptists, go back to RC's.

Or, put into its logical sequence...

10 Attack RC's
20 Attack Calvinists
30 Attack other denoms not in keeping with Baptists
40 Goto Line 10

What we have here is an infinite loop!

WM
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Could we learn not to bash & drag thru the mud? Ive become so disturbed by this kind of nonsense that it's not worth the time to come in here anymore.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I would like to point you back to the historical definitions and usages of the words "prayer" and "worship".

WM

I'm familiar with them. But I'm talking about the acts described in the Bible consistent with worship and prayer, which are reserved for God alone.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Ask any knowledgable Catholic and he/she will tell you that veneration and worship are two different things. Veneration = honor; worship is reserved for God alone. Do you honor your father and mother?

WM
They are not different. I don't pray to my parents...do you? Do you bow down to statues of them?
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
I'm familiar with them. But I'm talking about the acts described in the Bible consistent with worship and prayer, which are reserved for God alone.

According to what I know about the RC, they regard prayer as making a request; thus it is different from worship, which they rightly declare as reserved for God alone. I take them at their word on this and will allow God to decern the intent of their hearts.

WM
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
According to what I know about the RC, they regard prayer as making a request; thus it is different from worship, which they rightly declare as reserved for God alone. I take them at their word on this and will allow God to decern the intent of their hearts.

WM
Like as already been mentioned...redefining terms:

1prayer

noun, often attributive \ˈprer\
Definition of PRAYER

1
a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish

2
: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>

3
: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural

4
: something prayed for

5
: a slight chance <haven't got a prayer>

If you pray to anyone other than God...it is a cult, period.
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
They are not different. I don't pray to my parents...do you? Do you bow down to statues of them?

Have you never asked your parents for anything, "pray tell"? Hmmm...

Again ... look at the history of the words "prayer" and "worship" as they were never (until recently) synonomous. Bowing and prayer aren't they same either - just ask our President.

I often kneel with my bible open in front of me. Am I kneeling down to the bible? No - I am kneeling down to God. It's all about intent and neither you nor I know the heart of another. That is also reserved for God alone.

WM
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
Like as already been mentioned...redefining terms:

1prayer

noun, often attributive \ˈprer\
Definition of PRAYER

1
a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish

2
: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>

3
: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural

4
: something prayed for

5
: a slight chance <haven't got a prayer>

If you pray to anyone other than God...it is a cult, period.

Notice that your own source cites more than one intention/use for the word "pray". You really have a limited understanding of history there webdog.

WM
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Have you never asked your parents for anything, "pray tell"? Hmmm...
Are you serious? :laugh: I've also said "what's up" to my dad without having any desire to know what was above him. I've never used that phrase with my parents or anyone, btw.
Again ... look at the history of the words "prayer" and "worship" as they were never (until recently) synonomous. Bowing and prayer aren't they same either - just ask our President.
I gave the Webster's definition of prayer. That combined with how it is defined in Scripture is enough for me.
I often kneel with my bible open in front of me. Am I kneeling down to the bible? No - I am kneeling down to God. It's all about intent and neither you nor I know the heart of another. That is also reserved for God alone.
Do you have any idea what goes on in the Catholic church? My wife is a former RC and her entire family is still to this day. They are not bowing before the statue innocently...they are praying to the graven image...specifically what we are told NOT to do in Scripture! The intent is worship! Do you know what Pope John Paul had engraved on his coffin?
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Notice that your own source cites more than one intention/use for the word "pray". You really have a limited understanding of history there webdog.

WM
...and which one of those definitions supports prayer to humans exactly? Do you not understand the primary (#1) use of the word? My understanding is limited...to truth.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Let's see...does this just sound like something "honoring" another human?

Queen of peace, pray for us!
popepray.jpg
. . . Our gaze is directed toward you in great fear, to you do we turn with ever-more insistent faith in these times marked by many uncertainties and fears for the present and future of our planet. Together we lift our confident and sorrowful petition to you, the first fruit of humanity redeemed by Christ, finally freed from the slavery of evil and sin: hear the cry of the pain of victims of war and so many forms of violence that bloody the earth. Clear away the darkness of sorrow and worry, of hate and vengeance. Open up our minds and hearts to faith and forgiveness!”
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
WestminsterMan said:
You really have a limited understanding of history there webdog.

How about me? I have two grad degrees in history, taught history at the high school and college levels for years, and currently teach church history.

Why don't you go ahead and take a swing at me, Mr. Bigshot
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Have you never asked your parents for anything, "pray tell"? Hmmm...

Do you mean have I ever ascribed supernatural authority to them and the ability to perform supernatural acts in the physical world, like Catholics do with Mary, Michael the Archangel, and dozens of dead saints?

Hey, Westminster. Since your name is "Westminster", let's take a look at what your namesake has to say about the subject of prayer, shall we?

Westminster Shorter Catechism said:
Question: What is prayer?

Answer: Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God for things agreeable to his will, in the name of Christ, with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.

Q1. How many parts are there in prayer?

A1. There are three parts in prayer – petition, confession, and thanksgiving; but most properly, prayer doth consist in petition.

Q2. What kind of petition is prayer unto God?

A2. The petition of the lips, without the desire of the heart, may be accounted in prayer by men, but it is not acceptable prayer unto God, which is an offering up of the desires unto him, and pouring forth of the heart before him (cf. Psalm 62:8).

Q3. Unto whom are we to direct our prayers?

A3. We are to direct our prayers to God only (cf. Psalm 5:2-3).

Q4. Why are we to direct our prayers only unto God?

A4. We are to direct our prayers only unto God – 1) Because our prayer is a part of religious worship, and God is the only object of religious worship (cf. Matthew 4:10); 2) Because God only is everywhere present to see his people, and to hear their prayers (cf. Psalm 34:15); and 3) Because God only can answer our prayers by fulfilling our desires, and giving the things which we pray for and stand in need of (cf. Psalm 145:18-19).

Q5. For what things may we pray unto God?

A5. 1) We may not pray for the fulfilling of any sinful desires (cf. James 4:3); and 2) We may and ought to pray unto God only for such things as are agreeable unto his will (cf. 1 John 5:14-15).

Q6. What are the things agreeable unto God’s will which we may pray for?

A6. The things which we may pray for, are not all things which are agreeable unto his secret will; for thus all things which come to pass, even the worst of sins which are committed, are agreeable unto God’s secret counsel and eternal determination; but all things which are agreeable unto God’s revealed will in his Word, we may pray for; such as the pardon of our sins, the supplies of his grace, spiritual life and strength here, eternal life and glory hereafter, deliverance from spiritual and eternal evils; also whatever temporal good things we stand in need of, and all those things which either expressly or inclusively he hath promised in his covenant unto us.

Q7. In whose name ought we to pray unto God?

A7. We ought to pray unto God only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. John 14:13-14).

Q8. What is it pray unto God in the name of Christ?

A8. To pray unto God in the name of Christ, is not barely to mention the name of Christ with our lips in the conclusion, or any part of our prayers; but it is by faith to mention his name, depending upon Christ alone for admittance and access unto God in prayer, for acceptance, audience, and a gracious return unto our prayers (cf. Ephesians 3:12).

Q9. Why must we pray unto God in the name of Christ?

A9. We must pray unto God in the name of Christ, because God being so infinitely holy and jealous, so infinitely just and righteous, and we being so unholy and sinful, and our prayers at best so imperfect, and so mingled with defilement, that neither our persons would find acceptance, nor our prayers any audience with God, without the name and meditation of Christ, and the mixture of the sweet incense of his merits with our prayers, to take away the ill savour of them, and the using of his interest with the Father, upon his account alone, to give an answer unto them (cf. Revelation 8:3-4).

Q10. May we not make use of the name of angels, and the Virgin Mary, and other saints, in prayer, directing our prayers unto them to help us, at least to improve their interest in heaven for us, as the Papists [i.e., Roman Catholics] do teach and practice?

A10. 1) It is idolatry to direct our prayers unto any creature, God being the alone object of this and all other religious worship; therefore we ought not to direct our prayers unto angels (who have refused worship), much less unto any saints (cf. Colossians 2:18; Revelation 19:10); 2) There is but one Mediator and Intercessor in heaven for us, namely, the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is an affront to him to make use any angels or saints as our intercessors (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 2:1); 3) We have neither precept nor example in Scripture for, nor any promise unto any prayers which we shall make either unto or by either angels or saints; 4) The chiefest saints in heaven are ignorant of our condition on earth; neither can they, where they are, hear, much less give answer unto our prayers, and therefore are unfit to be the object of our prayers, or to make particular intercession for us (cf. Isaiah 63:16). Therefore the doctrine and practice of the Papists herein is both unallowable and abominable.

Q11. How must we pray unto God, that our prayers may be acceptable unto him, and answered by him?

A11. That our prayers may be acceptable unto God, and answered by him, we must pray – 1) With sincerity (cf. Hebrews 10:22); 2) With humility (cf. Psalm 10:17); 3) With faith (cf. James 1:6); 4) With fervency (cf. James 5:16); 5) With perseverance (cf. Luke 18:1); 6) We must look after our prayers, and wait for a return (cf. Micah 7:7).

Q12. Can we ourselves pray thus acceptably unto God?

A12. We cannot of ourselves pray thus acceptably unto God, without the Spirit of God to help our infirmities, and to teach us both for what and how to pray (cf. Romans 7:26-27).

Q13. Doth God accept and answer all prayers that are offered unto him?

A13. 1) God doth not accept and answer the prayers of the wicked (cf. Proverbs 15:8); 2) God doth not accept the prayers of his own people when they regard iniquity in their hearts (cf. Psalm 66:18); 3) God doth accept the prayers of his people which are offered up unto him in the name of Christ, and by the help of the Spirit, and which are for things agreeable unto his will; so that he either giveth the things unto them which they pray for, or else something that is equivalent or better for them.

Q14. What is the second part of prayer?

A14. The second part of prayer is confession of our sins, with which our petitions for pardon and supply of our wants should be introduced.

Q15. What sins should we make confession of in prayer?

A15. In prayer, we should make confession of our original and actual sins against law and gospel; of omission and commission, in thought and heart, or lip and life, with aggravations of them; acknowledging withal our desert of temporal, spiritual, eternal judgments and punishments for them (cf. Psalm 32:5; Psalm 51:4-5; Daniel 9:8).

Q16. How ought we in prayer to confess our sins?

A16. We ought in prayer to confess our sins humbly, fully, freely, with grief for them, and hatred of them, with full purpose and full resolution, in the strength of the Lord, not to return again to the practice of them.

Q17. What is the third part of prayer?

A17. The third part of prayer is, thankful acknowledgment of God’s mercies, temporal and spiritual, here, and the promises of life and happiness in the other world; which we ought to acknowledge with admiration, faith, love, joy, and all kind of suitable affections (Philippians 4:6).

Which one of these do you believe allows prayer to Mary, Michael, or other dead saints?

Notice specifically the part where it says:

Q4. Why are we to direct our prayers only unto God?

A4. We are to direct our prayers only unto God – 1) Because our prayer is a part of religious worship, and God is the only object of religious worship (cf. Matthew 4:10); 2) Because God only is everywhere present to see his people, and to hear their prayers (cf. Psalm 34:15); and 3) Because God only can answer our prayers by fulfilling our desires, and giving the things which we pray for and stand in need of (cf. Psalm 145:18-19).

Prayer is part of religious worship and God is the only object of religious worship - Matthew 4:10
God is the only one who is omnipresent and able to see His people and hear their prayers - Psalm 34:15
Only God can answer our prayers by fulfilling our desires and giving those things we need and pray for - Psalm 145:18-19
 
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