is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

[JesusFan]

Oi! What about the Orthodox?!

Anyway, it's more accurate to say they believe in faith + sacraments rather than faith + works

actually, RC teaches that God and man 'co operate" in getting a person saved... God provides the cross and sacraments, but a man MUST do enough penance /good works to earn enough merit to be able to "get saved"...

person co operates with God enough to become 'good enough" to earn salavation...

 

[JesusFan]

One of the characteristics of a cult is that its members do not have freedom of conscience ie they are not free to disagree with their leadership. That certainly does not characterise the RCs I know (some of whom are even priests), who freely disagree with many of the pronouncements of the Vatican (eg: on women priests, contraception, homosexuality, etc). For example, my son goes to a Catholic school. One of the schoolyard dads is a good friend of mine and a devout Catholic. He's had a vasectomy and thinks the Pope has quite simply got it wrong on this issue.He states that quite openly and his priest knows about this yet is quite happy to offer him communion and treat him in all other respects as a full-fledged member of the Catholic community in his parish.

So, not a cult in my view.

You have to understand that though there might be "positions" held/taken by Catholics different than official Catholic teachings...
You CANNOT disagree with the cardinal doctrines/dogmas of the RC and be a "good cathoilic" at least in eyes of the Vatican...

Try teaching as a priest that one is saved by Grace of God thru Faith in Christ ALONE and see what happens!

 

[JesusFan]

Matt, what we have here is the ever present circle of mischief......attack RC's, attack Calvinists, attack other denoms not in keeping with Baptists, go back to RC's.

Not attacking here though...
Just seeing IF a Church that proclaims that they ALONE are the one true Church, and that you MUST do penance/works+ Grace of God is any different that what Mormons and JW would say?

Isn't a Gospel of grace + anything qualify as a False Gospel/Church?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Not attacking here though...
Just seeing IF a Church that proclaims that they ALONE are the one true Church, and that you MUST do penance/works+ Grace of God is any different that what Mormons and JW would say?

Isn't a Gospel of grace + anything qualify as a False Gospel/Church?

Mormons say that we are saved by grace alone "...after doing all we can do". Catholics believe we're saved by grace, but have to perform salvific works or else God will take that grace away from you and, if you're really lucky, you get to go to Purgatory where you'll get the chance to expiate all the sins Jesus' blood didn't cover.

I'm having a hard time seeing much difference.

 

[billwald]

What did 1000 years of Christian theology mean by "the communion of saints?"

 

[glfredrick]

actually, RC teaches that God and man 'co operate" in getting a person saved... God provides the cross and sacraments, but a man MUST do enough penance /good works to earn enough merit to be able to "get saved"...

person co operates with God enough to become 'good enough" to earn salavation...

Isn't that sort of synergism much like the synergism suggested by those who have a LFW doctrine?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

What did 1000 years of Christian theology mean by "the communion of saints?"

I. All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory: and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as do conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.

II. Saints by profession are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offers opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

III. This communion which the saints have with Christ, does not make them in any wise partakers of the substance of His Godhead; or to be equal with Christ in any respect: either of which to affirm is impious and blasphemous. Nor does their communion one with another, as saints, take away, or infringe the title or propriety which each man has in his goods and possessions.

 

[Priscilla Ann]

One of the characteristics of a cult is that its members do not have freedom of conscience ie they are not free to disagree with their leadership. That certainly does not characterise the RCs I know (some of whom are even priests), who freely disagree with many of the pronouncements of the Vatican (eg: on women priests, contraception, homosexuality, etc). For example, my son goes to a Catholic school. One of the schoolyard dads is a good friend of mine and a devout Catholic. He's had a vasectomy and thinks the Pope has quite simply got it wrong on this issue.He states that quite openly and his priest knows about this yet is quite happy to offer him communion and treat him in all other respects as a full-fledged member of the Catholic community in his parish.

So, not a cult in my view.

You have given a perfect example of the disunity among Catholics. Your friend had a vasectomy, believes it is okay, and still receives communion. I believe that the Catholic Church considers vasectomy (or any form of artificial birth control) to be a mortal sin. (I don't have my copy of the Catechism at my desk, so I am unable to quote directly from it.)

Catholics are not free to disregard Catholic teaching and receive the sacraments -- at least to the best of my knowledge. Those who pick and choose which teachings to follow are scornfully referred to as "cafeteria Catholics". Perhaps the teachings have changed; I have been gone from the Catholic Church for nearly 15 years.

Is the Catholic Church a cult? They do teach doctrines that are not in scripture, but I don't know if I would classify them as a cult...

 

[WestminsterMan]

How about me? I have two grad degrees in history, taught history at the high school and college levels for years, and currently teach church history.

Where - at your local church? And which history would that be? Protestant, Catholic, or non secular? Hmmm....

Why don't you go ahead and take a swing at me, Mr. Bigshot

Ohhh please....

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...
Do you have any idea what goes on in the Catholic church? My wife is a former RC and her entire family is still to this day. They are not bowing before the statue innocently...they are praying to the graven image...specifically what we are told NOT to do in Scripture! The intent is worship!

To my knowledge, Catholic doctrine forbids praying to graven images as does scripture. If these people are doing this then they aren't following RCC teaching. Perhaps I am ignorant of RCC doctrine... Perhaps you can show me where they teach that a Catholic is to worship graven images...

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

Do you mean have I ever ascribed supernatural authority to them and the ability to perform supernatural acts in the physical world, like Catholics do with Mary, Michael the Archangel, and dozens of dead saints?

News flash! Saints are ALIVE in heaven with Jesus. He is the God of the living and not of the dead.

Prayer is part of religious worship and God is the only object of religious worship - Matthew 4:10

God is the only one who is omnipresent and able to see His people and hear their prayers - Psalm 34:15

What if God chooses that someone in heaven can hear us? I suppose He can do whatever He wants - whether you like it or not.

In Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.

Oops...not only a swing but a knock out.

Only God can answer our prayers by fulfilling our desires and giving those things we need and pray for - Psalm 145:18-19

True. Yet that neither negates nor reinforces your argument.

WM

 

[webdog]

I'm getting this hunch you are not really a baptist, WestminsterMan. Are you another one of the undercover RC's that joined here under false pretenses in order to straighten out "us baptists"?

 

[WestminsterMan]

I'm getting this hunch you are not really a baptist, WestminsterMan. Are you another one of the undercover RC's that joined here under false pretenses in order to straighten out "us baptists"?

Oh - I see... because I disagree with your position I suddenly become a RCC spy. Nice.

WM

 

[webdog]

Oh - I see... because I disagree with your position I suddenly become a RCC spy. Nice.

WM

There have been a half dozen or so in the past year. The fact your handle states "westminster"...and your views are clearly not in line with that is quite puzzling if you are truly baptist.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

News flash! Saints are ALIVE in heaven with Jesus.

I understand that they're alive in Heaven, but they are dead to us.

He is the God of the living and not of the dead.

Romans 14:9 says otherwise.

What if God chooses that someone in heaven can hear us?

Then He would have told us so in His word, rather than making a blanket condemnation against praying to the dead and then leaving us to guess whether or not there are exceptions.

I suppose He can do whatever He wants - whether you like it or not.

And He will always be consistent with His Word, whether you like it or not.

In Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.

Oops...not only a swing but a knock out.

Actually, it was a foul ball. First of all, the passage never says that the dead in Heaven can hear our prayers and even if it did, it still never says that we are allowed to pray to the dead or to anyone other than God.

True. Yet that neither negates nor reinforces your argument.

So then, can the dead do this?

Where - at your local church?

Rutgers University, Widener University, Del Tech, Camden Co College and currently, Chesapeake Baptist Bible College.

And which history would that be? Protestant, Catholic, or non secular?

There is only one.

Now could you please answer my questions?

I'm off for my Monday night class. I'll be back around nine. I hope you will have had the courage to try to answer my questions by then.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Oh - I see... because I disagree with your position I suddenly become a RCC spy. Nice.

WM

While I certainly am no defender of Webdog, in all fairness to him, it is a little odd that you would pick a name that indicates a Reformed background and then use common Catholic arguments.

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...

Now could you please answer my questions?

I'm off for my Monday night class. I'll be back around nine. I hope you will have had the courage to try to answer my questions by then.

I too have classes until 9:00pm. After a 14 hour day, it will be tomorrow before I will have the "courage".

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

While I certainly am no defender of Webdog, in all fairness to him, it is a little odd that you would pick a name that indicates a Reformed background and then use common Catholic arguments.

I believe I can pick any name that I choose.

WM

 

[webdog]

I believe I can pick any name that I choose.

WM

Why that if you are an rcc apologist? That would be like me picking Sinlessvirgin or Queenofheaven as a baptist.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I understand that they're alive in Heaven, but they are dead to us.

I don’t think you can prove that from scripture.

He is the God of the living and not of the dead.

Romans 14:9 says otherwise.

Mark 12:27 says so.

Then He would have told us so in His word, rather than making a blanket condemnation against praying to the dead and then leaving us to guess whether or not there are exceptions.

So you say. Not everything was written in scripture now was it?

“There are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written” (John 21:25).

And He will always be consistent with His Word, whether you like it or not.

I agree...He will always be consistent with His word. What I take exception with is YOUR interpretation of His word.

In Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.

Oops...not only a swing but a knock out.

Actually, it was a foul ball. First of all, the passage never says that the dead in Heaven can hear our prayers and even if it did, it still never says that we are allowed to pray to the dead or to anyone other than God.

Wrong! We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are hearing our prayers and they are interceding for us. You may not like it, but that is clearly what Revelation 5:8 says. Clearly, this can only happen by the power of God.

...and even if it did, it still never says that we are allowed to pray to the dead or to anyone other than God.

Again - saints are not dead and prayer isn’t always worship - it can be supplications as well as other things. Holding graduate history degrees, you should know that.

True. Yet that neither negates nor reinforces your argument.

So then, can the dead do this?

1) The saints are NOT dead.
2) They can do nothing on their own - the power comes from God and God alone.

Now could you please answer my questions?

I have.

WM