And yet another dodge
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Is Sabbath Saturday or Sunday.
- Thread starter Hobie
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And yet another dodge
OR both could be wrong!
Friends, I shall say this over & over, often as necessary...
THE SABBATH WAS GIVEN ONLY TO ISRAEL ! No Seven-Day-Adlibber can show me one verse of Scripture telling any gentile to keep the sabbath.
Far as the Ad-Libber claim that the Bible is their teacher goes, I won't hesitate to say they're mighty poor students.
OK, SDAs, please tell us who the archangel Michael is.
THE SABBATH WAS GIVEN ONLY TO ISRAEL ! No Seven-Day-Adlibber can show me one verse of Scripture telling any gentile to keep the sabbath.
Far as the Ad-Libber claim that the Bible is their teacher goes, I won't hesitate to say they're mighty poor students.
OK, SDAs, please tell us who the archangel Michael is.
Interesting comment by Salty but my believe is, if Saturday or Sunday is the Lords day, what about all the other days?... Everyday is the Lords day!... Brother Glen
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Yes, but nothing I say or any other person can bring you to truth, that is the work of the Holy Spirit, and like Martin Luther when he was impressed that 'the just shall live by faith', it guides you to Gods truth.
Interesting comment by Salty but my believe is, if Saturday or Sunday is the Lords day, what about all the other days?... Everyday is the Lords day!... Brother Glen
The phrase the "Lord's Day" appears only once in the Bible in Rev 1:10. So for all intenstive purposes "Lords Day" is used only as tradition.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
I think that issue needs to be looked at so opened a separate thread to go over that...Does the day of Christ resurrection tell us to worship on Sunday?
1. Early Christians met on Sunday (hopefully, we all agree on that)
Why?
A. To celebrate the resurrection
B. There is an OT feast which points to Sunday. Can someone tell us which one it is? Hint: there is a plus day factor in calculating it from Easter
C. To differentiate that Christianity was not just anothet sect of Judaism
D. The Worship principle is a 1 in 7 day
I will hold out for more later
Why?
A. To celebrate the resurrection
B. There is an OT feast which points to Sunday. Can someone tell us which one it is? Hint: there is a plus day factor in calculating it from Easter
C. To differentiate that Christianity was not just anothet sect of Judaism
D. The Worship principle is a 1 in 7 day
I will hold out for more later
But believing false doctrines allows other spirits besides the HOLY SPIRIT to work.
If you were listening to the Holy Spirit you would be guided to the truth, but you are listening to some other spirit than the Holy one, thus you go against one of the basic teachings of Christianity - worshipping on Sunday, the 1st day of the week, the Lord's Day.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Please give the text from scripture where it was changed, not a 'tradition'.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it has been said before:
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Already addressed in detail here - What is the Lord's day according to scripture alone?
#2
The Apostles led the church to Sunday worship.
1. They were the church leaders who were inspired until the close of the canon (Apostolic Authority)
2. They were never rebuked by Jesus after His resurrection, AND the Apostle Paul sat at Jesus feet and Never mentions that Jesus told him to revert back to the Sabbath (Saturday), and Paul learned directly from the Resurrected Lord
More to come
The Apostles led the church to Sunday worship.
1. They were the church leaders who were inspired until the close of the canon (Apostolic Authority)
2. They were never rebuked by Jesus after His resurrection, AND the Apostle Paul sat at Jesus feet and Never mentions that Jesus told him to revert back to the Sabbath (Saturday), and Paul learned directly from the Resurrected Lord
More to come
37818
Well-Known Member
The seveth day Sabbath has never been abolished, Matthew 24:20. And Christians assemble on the first day of the week, Acts of the Apostles 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2.
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
Well lets look at if Jesus or the Apostles change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday the first day of the week? Here is a excerpt from a book by Kenneth A. Strand, The Sabbath in Scripture and History.
"...The word Sunday is not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.
Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.
Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.
Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.
Luke 23:54 ­ 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).
John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb."Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.
John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.......
Hobie
Well-Known Member
......Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.
1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.
None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.
As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.
The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16 &18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.
Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them....."STRAND, Kenneth A. The Sabbath in Scripture and History.pdf | Genesis Creation Narrative | Shabbat
1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.
None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.
As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.
The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16 &18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.
Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them....."STRAND, Kenneth A. The Sabbath in Scripture and History.pdf | Genesis Creation Narrative | Shabbat
37818
Well-Known Member
The seveth day Sabbath has never been
Two irrefutable facts: 1) The Sabbath remains the 7th day of the week. 2) Christians meet and worship on the first day of the week.
Two irrefutable facts: 1) The Sabbath remains the 7th day of the week. 2) Christians meet and worship on the first day of the week.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
They seem to be in conflict, so should we go by what God says or 'tradition' from the Roman church.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Yes, and here is 'more', let look at who points the finger at the Pope and lays claim that Catholic Church changed it:
CONVERTS CATECHISM:
QUESTION: Which day is the Sabbath?
ANSWER; Saturday is the Sabbath day.
QUESTION: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
ANSWER: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
QUESTION BOX by Father Conway, P. 179:
"What Bible authority is there for changing the sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week?
"Who gave the Pope authority to change a command of God?
ANSWER: "If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday . . . but Catholics learn what to believe and do from the Catholic Church WHICH MADE SUNDAY THE DAY OF REST."
PLAIN TALK ABOUT PROTESTANTS, P. 213: "It is worth while to remember that this observance of Sunday, in which after all, the only Protestant worship consists' not only has no foundation in the Bible, but is in flagrant contradiction to its letter, which commands rest on the Sabbath, which IS SATURDAY. It was the CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHICH HAS TRANSFERRED THIS REST TO SUNIDIAY. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is a homage they pay in spite of themselves, to the AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."
KANSAS CITY CATHOLIC, Feb. 9, 1893: "The Catholic Church by virtue of her divine mission, CHANGED THE DAY FROM SATURDAY TO SUNDAY."
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