37818
Well-Known Member
What is the earlist evidence to support this. Re: Revelation 1:10 referring to the first day of the week.
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Is Sabbath Saturday or Sunday.
- Thread starter Hobie
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"Context!" is what everyone shouts who wants to say, "this passage doesn't mean what it says, but what I say it says!" Romans 14:5-6 and Colosians 2:16 are definitely 2 of such passages where the language is too clear to be true... or so says Pope Hobie and one or two others.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So what day is the Sabbath?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Here are some statements which show who and what 'tradition' the churches are following and its not the Bible:
"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950. This Rock
Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50
Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ... Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.
"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.
''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.
"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth," Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).
"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.
'Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'' Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.
"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." The Faith of Millions
"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.' Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.
'It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.'Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ on March 18, 1903. This Rock
'Of course these .. quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit 'or blame ' This Rock,The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997
'The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.' Monsignor Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today';, p. 213.
"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950. This Rock
Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50
Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ... Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.
"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.
''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.
"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth," Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).
"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.
'Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'' Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.
"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." The Faith of Millions
"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.' Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.
'It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.'Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ on March 18, 1903. This Rock
'Of course these .. quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit 'or blame ' This Rock,The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997
'The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.' Monsignor Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today';, p. 213.
Paul, on authority, perhaps on the COMMAND, made it clear in Col. 2 that gentile Christians were NOT bound to ISRAELI religious law.
One may read of the many "feasts"(actually solemn occasions) God decreed for OLD ISRAEL. Nowhere does God command non-Israelis to keep any of those occasions.
What God DID command, for ALL Christians, was to worship only Him, abstain from sexual sin, all immorality, bad language, intoxication, anger without actual cause, malice, especially LYING, etc.
Most of the whole chapter of Col. 2 is devoted to Christians' being free of the old religious rules for Israel, and to be free of man-made rules of faith/worship. (But Jesus told us to obey civil law, long as it didn't contradict GOD'S rules.)
It comes down to CONSCIENCE. A Jewish Christian may feel he/she must still observe the Saturday sabbath, passover, & other "Jewish" observances, & that's fine, long as that person does not berate others who don't follow those observances. I myself have asked JESUS to forgive my sin of berating those who DO follow such things. (However, I am NOT wrong to rake those who follow man-made false doctrines such as the regenerational baptism hype, the KJVO myth, or the preterism lie.)
So, you SDAs may justify your Saturday worship unto yourselves, but that does NOT counter the apostasy within your cult of your beliefs about hell not being eternal, contrary to Scripture, and your "investigative judgment" is found NOWHERE in Scripture, but is an invention of Mrs. White. (I can go on for hours with your errors.)
While I won't criticize the Seven-Day-Adlibbers any more for Saturday worship, I will continue to criticize them for other doctrines & teachings of theirs, which are completely-false & heretical.
One may read of the many "feasts"(actually solemn occasions) God decreed for OLD ISRAEL. Nowhere does God command non-Israelis to keep any of those occasions.
What God DID command, for ALL Christians, was to worship only Him, abstain from sexual sin, all immorality, bad language, intoxication, anger without actual cause, malice, especially LYING, etc.
Most of the whole chapter of Col. 2 is devoted to Christians' being free of the old religious rules for Israel, and to be free of man-made rules of faith/worship. (But Jesus told us to obey civil law, long as it didn't contradict GOD'S rules.)
It comes down to CONSCIENCE. A Jewish Christian may feel he/she must still observe the Saturday sabbath, passover, & other "Jewish" observances, & that's fine, long as that person does not berate others who don't follow those observances. I myself have asked JESUS to forgive my sin of berating those who DO follow such things. (However, I am NOT wrong to rake those who follow man-made false doctrines such as the regenerational baptism hype, the KJVO myth, or the preterism lie.)
So, you SDAs may justify your Saturday worship unto yourselves, but that does NOT counter the apostasy within your cult of your beliefs about hell not being eternal, contrary to Scripture, and your "investigative judgment" is found NOWHERE in Scripture, but is an invention of Mrs. White. (I can go on for hours with your errors.)
While I won't criticize the Seven-Day-Adlibbers any more for Saturday worship, I will continue to criticize them for other doctrines & teachings of theirs, which are completely-false & heretical.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Paul was clear...
Romans 11:11-24 English Standard Version (ESV)
Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Is the Mar of the Beast per Ellen White Sunday Worship?
Does NOT cancel his words in Col. 2.
I believe that mark will be some sorta microchip. The tech already exists.
Saturday to Israel, Sunday to the Church!
Think Sda hold, per EW, that Sunday Worship is taking the Mark!
Do you really want to know?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
There is nothing, but still people keep trying. The Sabbath was never abolished, and nowhere was it transferred to the first day.
Are you demonstrating that you accept a Roman Catholic source as your authority for this claim and that you are not sola scriptura?
Because a Roman Catholic source makes the above assertion does not prove that it is the truth.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Check any historical source and even religious scholars and you will find the same thing. Here is from sda theologian and Bible scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi..
"So how did it get into the church?
Emperor Aurelian begins new Sun cult. (274 A.D.)
[p. 55] In 274, Aurelian created a new cult of the 'Invincible Sun'. Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome, celebrated every fourth year by magnificent games, Sol Invictus was definitely promoted to the highest rank in the divine hierarchy and became the official protector of the Sovereigns and of the Empire; He [Aurelian] placed in his new sanctuary the images of Bel and Helios, which he captured at Palmyra. In establishing this new State cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-worship;
[p. 56] This sidereal theology, founded on ancient beliefs of Chaldean astrologers, transformed in the Hellenistic age under the twofold influence of astronomic discoveries and Stoic thought, [was] promoted, after becoming a pantheistic Sun-worship, to the rank of official religion of the Roman Empire.
Source: Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans (reprint; New York: Dover Publications, Inc., 1960), pp. 55, 56.
First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine -
March, 321 A.D.
On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].)
Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p. 380, note 1.
Transition of "Day of the Sun"
[p. 122] This legislation by Constantine probably bore no relation to Christianity; it appears, on the contrary, that the emperor, in his capacity of Pontifex Maximus, was only adding the day of the Sun, the worship of which was then firmly [p. 123] established in the Roman Empire, to the other ferial days of the sacred calendar…
[p. 270] What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labour on Sunday.
Source: Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 122, 123, 270. Copyright 1916 by The Macmillan Company, New York.
Pagan Festivals and Church Policy
The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance.
Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York.
The most likely church for the source of this change is the Church of Rome. Here can be found the social, religious and political conditions which permitted and encouraged the abandonment of Sabbathkeeping and the adoption of Sunday worship instead."..http://www.anym.org/pdf/from_Sabbath_to_Sunday_samuele_bacchiocchi.pdf
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
OK, so history means nothing in your opinion. And scripture doesnt seem to hold much weight in some quarters, as many tend more to throw it aside to follow "traditions" rather than Gods Word. So what should we use.
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You follow in this the error teaching of Ellen White!
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