Is Saving Faith A Gift?

[SavedByGrace]

Calvin's own out of context words you mean.

lets see the context then?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sigh...your lack of understanding covenant making seems to be blocking your grasp of what Joshua was doing with the people as it directly relates to the Mosaic Covenant and Law that God gave to the nation of Israel. Israel is a particular nation, chosen out of all other nations in the world, to be the pathway by which the Promised Messiah would come to Redeem His people. Every writer expresses that within the nation, there is a particular remnant that God has justified by faith. If you don't grasp how this covenant making works, you will never understand Paul's writings. It will always elude you and you will ultimately never understand God's grace. You will do what you have been doing; you will substitute and turn law into your idea of grace. At present, you cannot see that your gospel is one of salvation by legal merit. Because you do not grasp covenant making by God, you create a legal means where men do specific things in order to merit God's favor. My how I wish you had eyes to see this. The scales would fall off and the burden of your teaching would be removed. God's peace and grace would move in and you would experience the joy of unmerited grace. How I wish that for you.
I was once bound in the legal shackles you are presently in. I know others here were also in your shoes at one time. We know how hard Satan worked to keep us chained to the law, even though God had freed us from the law. Indeed, we once made the same foolish arguments that you make, of which we are now ashamed and have repented to God.
I can see your zealousnness. It is admirable. Now, I pray that God redirects your zeal in teaching you the fullness of His covenant of grace. When he opens your eyes, you will be blessed in an amazing way.
Peace

simply put, you "reformed" guys have been stumped by the OP, and cannot really respond, so as always try to distract by endless useless arguments, that are so very UNBIBLICAL!

 

[Iconoclast]

So, when the Bible clearly states, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE, this does not mean to ACCEPT God???

PLEASE stop continuing to write RUBBISH!

Choose definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

They were already the professed people of God. It does NOT SAY...choose you this day to accept God.
You go all out to wrest scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

simply put, you "reformed" guys have been stumped by the OP, and cannot really respond, so as always try to distract by endless useless arguments, that are so very UNBIBLICAL!

Since every attempt has been rendered void, you deny what has taken place...Reformed guys 137...SBG.....nil

 

[AustinC]

simply put, you "reformed" guys have been stumped by the OP, and cannot really respond, so as always try to distract by endless useless arguments, that are so very UNBIBLICAL!

I know you think this. Truth is you present a legalism, void of grace, and you will not admit it.
You also falsely say we have been unbiblical. The Bible has been front and center in addressing your legalism.
You imagine our argument to be unbiblical because you refuse counsel from scripture.
What is remarkable is that both Reformed and Arminian believers here have attempted to correct you, but you refuse all who point out your error.
Understand that you live on an island of your own making.

 

[SavedByGrace]

They were already the professed people of God. It does NOT SAY...choose you this day to accept God.
You go all out to wrest scripture.

"If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh.”

CHOOSE Whom you will SERVE, BOW down to in WORSHIP! They are told to ACCEPT Yahweh as their God, or "the gods of the Amorites"!

If they chose the latter, they are damned forever. Clearly their SALVATION depends on their CHOICE. No other way to understand this!

 

[AustinC]

"If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh.”

CHOOSE Whom you will SERVE, BOW down to in WORSHIP! They are told to ACCEPT Yahweh as their God, or "the gods of the Amorites"!

If they chose the latter, they are damned forever. Clearly their SALVATION depends on their CHOICE. No other way to understand this!

Will the nation submit itself under the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant provided by YHWH or not. This was a corporate decision. It has NOTHING to do with salvation and justification.
Sigh...may your eyes be opened.

 

[Iconoclast]

"If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh.”

CHOOSE Whom you will SERVE, BOW down to in WORSHIP! They are told to ACCEPT Yahweh as their God, or "the gods of the Amorites"!

If they chose the latter, they are damned forever. Clearly their SALVATION depends on their CHOICE. No other way to understand this!

This is why you cannot understand anything biblical.
The word accept is not there.
They are told to serve God or go into apostasy.
They are not being told to choose salvation.
They are told to obey or wind up in Hell.

 

[SavedByGrace]

They are told to obey or wind up in Hell

so the saved CAN BE LOST???

 

[SavedByGrace]

Will the nation submit itself under the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant provided by YHWH or not. This was a corporate decision. It has NOTHING to do with salvation and justification.
Sigh...may your eyes be opened.

either these are saved, or not; if they are, then clearly they can be LOST!

 

[Iconoclast]

so the saved CAN BE LOST???

no....however in the OT.>
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

How many times do we have to show you before you might pause to consider truth?

 

[SavedByGrace]

no....however in the OT.>
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

How many times do we have to show you before you might pause to consider truth?

So God is Commanding that those who are not truly Israel to choose Him?

Your NONSENSE continues

 

[Iconoclast]

So God is Commanding that those who are not truly Israel to choose Him?

Your NONSENSE continues

God commands sinners to do things all the time,why are you surprised?

Life happens in real time.

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God commands sinners to do things all the time,why are you surprised?

Life happens in real time.

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You mean like you said in #19?

 

[Reformed1689]

simply put, you "reformed" guys have been stumped by the OP,

Hardly

 

[Reformed1689]

then it is like YOU!

My theology comes directly from Scripture, nowhere else.

 

[percho]

I would post in this thread but it is about to get locked. Guess I'll just wait for part 2.

 

[Dave G]

All you do, is to repeat your REFORMED theology, even though you say that you are not!

I'm simply repeating what Paul wrote in the epistles, what the Lord Jesus said in many places ( including John 6 ), and what Peter wrote in his epistles.
David, Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah also had many of these truths given to them, but not in as detailed a way as the Lord's apostles did.

What you have written does not even deal with the points that I have made in the OP.

My friend, we've been down this road before and it seems you still do not understand what it is that you're putting forward...
Salvation by merit.

Addressing your OP and what is contained in it can be summarized without getting into much detail...

According to God's word, faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), is said to be "of" Christ in several places ( Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:22 ), is something that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ), is the evidence of God's work in someone ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and is something that only God's people rely on in this life to do many things for the Lord ( Hebrews 11 )...

and you disagree with that for some reason.

Simply read the passages I've listed and read them for what they say...
For example, what is biblical faith?

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

The substance and evidence of "things hoped for and not seen".
Since that is true, then how can we use what is the evidence of things not seen, in order to meet a requirement?

 

[Dave G]

That, if Saving Faith is a "Gift" only given to the "elect"; then God cannot justly punish those who do not believe, because it is He Who withheld this "faith", so that they could believe!

Respectfully,
I think you're missing the point.

If He decides to punish someone, He does so in complete righteousness.
If He decides to withhold the new birth from someone, He does have that prerogative.
If He decides to save some and to damn the rest, He is righteous.

Romans 9 addresses this very objection.

To me, you're missing the biggest points that are made by the Lord...
We sinned, and He judges that according to His version of what is right and wrong;
Not ours.

Us crying "not fair!" at the top of our lungs is of no use in the face of a perfect, righteous and holy Judge,
who sees every thought and intent of the heart.

 

[Dave G]

I cannot understand why this should be so difficult to understand?

Actually, it's very easy for me ( even though it is disheartening ) to understand...
To me, you don't believe and / or understand God's words in Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other places...

Like John 6.

It's all there SBG....
Where did you think I got it from?

Certainly not "Reformed" writers,
although I see that they state a great many truths about how God's word describes salvation by grace.

Again, to me you're describing using faith as a sort of tool or "good deed" in order to gain salvation from God's eternal wrath;
It doesn't work like that, and that is not grace per Romans 11:5-6.
Grace is God's unmerited gift of eternal life...

We cannot gain it by performing an act of contrition.

Also, true repentance and faith are not things that we, as natural men, want to do for Him.
Rather, it takes the power of God to make us new creatures in Christ, before we can hear His words and see ourselves as He does.