Is Saving Faith A Gift?

[1689Dave]

1689, you are attempting to lower God to be Israel. You are also, trying to take a spiritual analogy and make it a physical reality. Paul's letter to the Romans does not go to the position you are going.
Jesus is God. Jesus is King and High Priest. We are God's children, adopted from before the foundation of the world and revealed in these days. There are two things. Sheep and Goats.

You are stopping your ears to some of the greatest truths in the bible. Jesus is Israel in the NT. He even says He has a people called after His name. Don't miss out on this. Study it

 

[Reformed1689]

man, you can't respond to the Scriptures in the OP, and the arguments that I have used; so you try to make false accusations against me! It is more honest to simply admit that you have no response, than to shoot in the dark!

I gave you my sincere response. You reject God's Word on this issue and make yourself the judge of justice.

 

[Dave G]

Is Saving Faith A Gift?

Yes.
Per Ephesians 2:8, it is, and per Hebrews 12:2 it was authored and finished for the believer by their Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Faith in Him as Saviour and Lord is not something that all men have per 2 Thessalonians 3:2, and it is the evidence of God's working in someone per Hebrews 11:1.
It is also a fruit of the Spirit per Galatians 5:22, so anyone who does not have the Spirit of God in them will never have or exhibit true faith, especially under trials and tribulations.

In Galatians 2:16-20 and other places it is said to be "of" ( by or from ) Jesus Christ,
while Philippians 1:29 makes it abundantly clear that the ability to believe is itself given to the Christian:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; "

Therefore, faith cannot exist as a requirement or condition that gains a person God's favor, but only as an evidence of His saving grace and His favor that He has placed upon them through no effort of their own.

Per the Scriptures, we are saved by grace, through faith...and that not of ourselves, for it is the gift of God....
Again, not "of" ( by or from ) works, lest any man should boast.

God's gifts completely rule out the possibility of boasting in anything that we did or had in order to secure something from the Lord's hands.

We as Christians do not rest on the fact that we have faith.
We rest on the fact that He has saved us and called us with an holy calling...which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).
We do not rest on our works of righteousness ( like belief on His Son and faith towards Him ), but rather on the fact that it was not by those works of righteousness which we have done ( Titus 3:4-7 ), but by His mercy He saved any of us for Himself.

We also place our trust in what He has both given to us and accomplished for us...
Eternal life with Him and His Son, that includes salvation from His eternal wrath and judgment in the Lake of Fire.

 

[AustinC]

You are stopping your ears to some of the greatest truths in the bible. Jesus is Israel in the NT. He even says He has a people called after His name. Don't miss out on this. Study it

Not at all. I am observing the truths of all scripture. I note that the writer to the Hebrews places Jesus as God, greater than Moses and Israel. His people are his adopted children. Each one is adopted, individually, by name, from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
Jesus is not Israel. Israel is a symbol of God's chosen ones. You are attempting to make something literal that is not to be taken literally.

 

[DaveXR650]

This makes God unjust! God with-holds Saving Faith from the “non-elect”, so that they cannot BELIEVE and be saved; and then damns them for something that they CANNOT do???

You don't want to start with the premise that everyone in their natural state is neutral toward God. Because then the idea of electing to save some and not others would be unfair. The Bible is clear that in our natural state we are all sinful. None of us are would come and believe on our own. You don't need to be a Calvinist - John R. Rice, Billy Graham and Charles Wesley say this also. If you think maybe in Calvinism the ideas are expressed badly then go with those guys. I know some Baptists who think like you do on Ephesians 2:8-9 and the big problem I see is there is a tendency to go to the point of saying "Well, at least I had sense enough to believe!" That is Pelagian.

 

[Dave G]

Now, if Saving Faith is a Gift from God, and only given to the “Elect”, how can God Justly condemn those who do NOT BELIEVE, as they were not given this Saving Faith, so that they could be saved?

Because faith, as the evidence of His work in someone, doesn't save anyone eternally.
Secondly, God justly condemns all men per these:

" What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Romans 3:9-12 ).

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 ).

" For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 ).

His judgment is based on sin, or the imputation of Christ's total lack of it ( perfect righteousness ) towards someone.
In other words, He casts unrepentant sinners into Hell, and saves sinners who were made righteous, in His sight, by the blood of His Son and to whom repentance was granted to them as a product of His saving grace;
He brings them to repentance...they don't bring themselves to it in order to get Him to save them.

SBG,
To me, you keep trying to equate faith as something like a prybar;
which then "gets us into" God's good graces because someone uses it "properly".

It's not a tool that someone can use to get God to save them from His wrath and eternal punishment...
It's a product of the work of the Holy Spirit in someone ( Galatians 5:22 ).

 

[Silverhair]

Your post is of no value and only reveals your bias.

Yes my bias to ward biblical truth. Which appears to be contrary to your view.

 

[Silverhair]

SH,
You have yet to put forth anything worthy of discussion.
You and the anti cal posse just keep chanting, Calvinism bad, free will man centered theology..good.

Well I am not the one that holds to LBCF and yet denies what it says. You have to learn to read context. It will really help you overcome those blind spots you have.

 

[AustinC]

Yes my bias to ward biblical truth. Which appears to be contrary to your view.

Silverhair, it's not biblical truth since you cannot find anyplace in scripture that tells you you must accept God to be saved. In fact it is just the opposite. God must accept you if you are to be saved.
Hebrews 12:6
For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”

 

[Iconoclast]

Well I am not the one that holds to LBCF and yet denies what it says. You have to learn to read context. It will really help you overcome those blind spots you have.

I think you meant to say understand what it says.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Silverhair, it's not biblical truth since you cannot find anyplace in scripture that tells you you must accept God to be saved. In fact it is just the opposite. God must accept you if you are to be saved.
Hebrews 12:6
For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”

So, when the Bible clearly states, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE, this does not mean to ACCEPT God???

PLEASE stop continuing to write RUBBISH!

Choose definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

 

[SavedByGrace]

Because faith, as the evidence of His work in someone, doesn't save anyone eternally.
Secondly, God justly condemns all men per these:

" What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Romans 3:9-12 ).

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 ).

" For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 ).

His judgment is based on sin, or the imputation of Christ's total lack of it ( perfect righteousness ) towards someone.
In other words, He casts unrepentant sinners into Hell, and saves sinners who were made righteous, in His sight, by the blood of His Son and to whom repentance was granted to them as a product of His saving grace;
He brings them to repentance...they don't bring themselves to it in order to get Him to save them.

SBG,
To me, you keep trying to equate faith as something like a prybar;
which then "gets us into" God's good graces because someone uses it "properly".

It's not a tool that someone can use to get God to save them from His wrath and eternal punishment...
It's a product of the work of the Holy Spirit in someone ( Galatians 5:22 ).

All you do, is to repeat your REFORMED theology, even though you say that you are not!

What you have written does not even deal with the points that I have made in the OP. That, if Saving Faith is a "Gift" only given to the "elect"; then God cannot justly punish those who do not believe, because it is He Who withheld this "faith", so that they could believe! I cannot understand why this should be so difficult to understand?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not at all. I am observing the truths of all scripture. I note that the writer to the Hebrews places Jesus as God, greater than Moses and Israel. His people are his adopted children. Each one is adopted, individually, by name, from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
Jesus is not Israel. Israel is a symbol of God's chosen ones. You are attempting to make something literal that is not to be taken literally.

start another thread on this!

 

[1689Dave]

Not at all. I am observing the truths of all scripture. I note that the writer to the Hebrews places Jesus as God, greater than Moses and Israel. His people are his adopted children. Each one is adopted, individually, by name, from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
Jesus is not Israel. Israel is a symbol of God's chosen ones. You are attempting to make something literal that is not to be taken literally.

Are you premillennial or Dispensational? It would explain your difficulty. I'm Amillennial so I see the Church as Israel, the body of Christ who is Israel in the NT.
“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)

Jesus The True Israel | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

 

[AustinC]

So, when the Bible clearly states, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE, this does not mean to ACCEPT God???

PLEASE stop continuing to write RUBBISH!

Choose definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

LOL, context is so very important with that statement, sbg.
Joshua is talking to the chosen people, the nation of Israel. Moses has died. God had given the Sinai/Mosaic covenant to a particular people
That covenant was conditional. God blesses if the nation obeys God's rules.
Joshua, the new judge of Israel, calls the people together and gives them a chance to decide if they would commit to the covenant or not.
If you read this passage you read all about what God had done previous to this covenant that Joshua is making with the already chosen people of Israel. You will also notice that Joshua tells them they will fail.
Joshua 24:14-27
“So fear the Lord and serve him wholeheartedly. Put away forever the idols your ancestors worshiped when they lived beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord alone. But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.” The people replied, “We would never abandon the Lord and serve other gods. For the Lord our God is the one who rescued us and our ancestors from slavery in the land of Egypt. He performed mighty miracles before our very eyes. As we traveled through the wilderness among our enemies, he preserved us. It was the Lord who drove out the Amorites and the other nations living here in the land. So we, too, will serve the Lord, for he alone is our God.” Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you abandon the Lord and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you.” But the people answered Joshua, “No, we will serve the Lord!” “You are a witness to your own decision,” Joshua said. “You have chosen to serve the Lord.” “Yes,” they replied, “we are witnesses to what we have said.” “All right then,” Joshua said, “destroy the idols among you, and turn your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God. We will obey him alone.” So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day at Shechem, committing them to follow the decrees and regulations of the Lord. Joshua recorded these things in the Book of God’s Instructions. As a reminder of their agreement, he took a huge stone and rolled it beneath the terebinth tree beside the Tabernacle of the Lord. Joshua said to all the people, “This stone has heard everything the Lord said to us. It will be a witness to testify against you if you go back on your word to God.”

sbg, you simply don't understand God's saving grace so you substitute it for a legalism that you think will save you. Your teaching lifts up human effort as the controlling factor that saves. You assume that human willpower is the deciding factor that determines whether a person is saved or not saved. However, the Bible always declares that human willpower always ends with humans missing the mark. You find it in the passage you attempted to use as your argument.
Will you give up your false assertion that humans invoke the grace of God by their works, or will you acknowledge that salvation is by God's grace alone?

 

[SavedByGrace]

LOL, context is so very important with that statement, sbg.
Joshua is talking to the chosen people, the nation of Israel. Moses has died. God had given the Sinai/Mosaic covenant to a particular people
That covenant was conditional. God blesses if the nation obeys God's rules.
Joshua, the new judge of Israel, calls the people together and gives them a chance to decide if they would commit to the covenant or not.
If you read this passage you read all about what God had done previous to this covenant that Joshua is making with the already chosen people of Israel. You will also notice that Joshua tells them they will fail.
Joshua 24:14-27
“So fear the Lord and serve him wholeheartedly. Put away forever the idols your ancestors worshiped when they lived beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord alone. But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.” The people replied, “We would never abandon the Lord and serve other gods. For the Lord our God is the one who rescued us and our ancestors from slavery in the land of Egypt. He performed mighty miracles before our very eyes. As we traveled through the wilderness among our enemies, he preserved us. It was the Lord who drove out the Amorites and the other nations living here in the land. So we, too, will serve the Lord, for he alone is our God.” Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you abandon the Lord and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you.” But the people answered Joshua, “No, we will serve the Lord!” “You are a witness to your own decision,” Joshua said. “You have chosen to serve the Lord.” “Yes,” they replied, “we are witnesses to what we have said.” “All right then,” Joshua said, “destroy the idols among you, and turn your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God. We will obey him alone.” So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day at Shechem, committing them to follow the decrees and regulations of the Lord. Joshua recorded these things in the Book of God’s Instructions. As a reminder of their agreement, he took a huge stone and rolled it beneath the terebinth tree beside the Tabernacle of the Lord. Joshua said to all the people, “This stone has heard everything the Lord said to us. It will be a witness to testify against you if you go back on your word to God.”

sbg, you simply don't understand God's saving grace so you substitute it for a legalism that you think will save you. Your teaching lifts up human effort as the controlling factor that saves. You assume that human willpower is the deciding factor that determines whether a person is saved or not saved. However, the Bible always declares that human willpower always ends with humans missing the mark. You find it in the passage you attempted to use as your argument.
Will you give up your false assertion that humans invoke the grace of God by their works, or will you acknowledge that salvation is by God's grace alone?

More RUBBISH!

IF, as you say that Joshua was speaking to "chosen people", as SAVED, then by giving these the ultimatum, to CHOOSE between the One True God of the Bible, and the devil, is very clear that these COULD have CHOSEN the devil, and therefore become LOST! So much for "eternal security"!

Jesus says in John 5:39-40, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But YOU ARE NOT WILLING to come to Me that you may have life"

Here is a clear CHOICE, between Jesus Christ, or the devil and the world!

Further, this passage shows FREE WILL!

 

[AustinC]

More RUBBISH!

IF, as you say that Joshua was speaking to "chosen people", as SAVED, then by giving these the ultimatum, to CHOOSE between the One True God of the Bible, and the devil, is very clear that these COULD have CHOSEN the devil, and therefore become LOST! So much for "eternal security"!

Jesus says in John 5:39-40, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But YOU ARE NOT WILLING to come to Me that you may have life"

Here is a clear CHOICE, between Jesus Christ, or the devil and the world!

Further, this passage shows FREE WILL!

Sigh...your lack of understanding covenant making seems to be blocking your grasp of what Joshua was doing with the people as it directly relates to the Mosaic Covenant and Law that God gave to the nation of Israel. Israel is a particular nation, chosen out of all other nations in the world, to be the pathway by which the Promised Messiah would come to Redeem His people. Every writer expresses that within the nation, there is a particular remnant that God has justified by faith. If you don't grasp how this covenant making works, you will never understand Paul's writings. It will always elude you and you will ultimately never understand God's grace. You will do what you have been doing; you will substitute and turn law into your idea of grace. At present, you cannot see that your gospel is one of salvation by legal merit. Because you do not grasp covenant making by God, you create a legal means where men do specific things in order to merit God's favor. My how I wish you had eyes to see this. The scales would fall off and the burden of your teaching would be removed. God's peace and grace would move in and you would experience the joy of unmerited grace. How I wish that for you.
I was once bound in the legal shackles you are presently in. I know others here were also in your shoes at one time. We know how hard Satan worked to keep us chained to the law, even though God had freed us from the law. Indeed, we once made the same foolish arguments that you make, of which we are now ashamed and have repented to God.
I can see your zealousnness. It is admirable. Now, I pray that God redirects your zeal in teaching you the fullness of His covenant of grace. When he opens your eyes, you will be blessed in an amazing way.
Peace

 

[Reformed1689]

Dude I don't get any of my theology from isms!

You certainly don't get it from Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvin's own words on

Calvin's own out of context words you mean.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You certainly don't get it from Scripture.

then it is like YOU!