is the Catholic Church officially now Apostate?

[Thomas Helwys]

I don't believe the Pope is teaching universalism. I believe that he's saying that Jesus provides redemption for everyone. However, only the people who avail themselves or accepting this redemption are saved.

However, its not a dogmatic statement nor was it said ex cathedra.

I must say, that's how I took it also.

I still believe the RCC is on the fringe of orthodoxy and in serious and grave error on some things, but I don't think it's apostate.

I am trying to be fair and objective.

 

[saturneptune]

What is all the big deal about higher college degrees? It is a piece of paper. You can have mine if you will send me $100. All a level of degree represents is money and time spent in a classroom. If a person got As in high school, one will get As as he or she progresses towards a Bachelors, Masters, or Doctorate. In the work force, I have seen those with no college that were great workers and those with doctorates that were as useful as a hat rack.

Same with posts. Let them speak for themselves. No one cares about someone else's academic achievements. What good does a doctorate that posts nonsense do? Why condemn someone without college who posts solidly Biblical doctrine?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What is all the big deal about higher college degrees? It is a piece of paper. You can have mine if you will send me $100. All a level of degree represents is money and time spent in a classroom. If a person got As in high school, one will get As as he or she progresses towards a Bachelors, Masters, or Doctorate. In the work force, I have seen those with no college that were great workers and those with doctorates that were as useful as a hat rack.

Same with posts. Let them speak for themselves. No one cares about someone else's academic achievements. What good does a doctorate that posts nonsense do? Why condemn someone without college who posts solidly Biblical doctrine?

I actually agree, and if people who have no ammunition other than to insult my intelligence would stop that tactic, I would not bring up the topic of education. In fact, I intend this to be my last mention of it. And I also intend to try not to respond to insults anymore. I'll need divine help for that.

 

[saturneptune]

I actually agree, and if people who have no ammunition other than to insult my intelligence would stop that tactic, I would not bring up the topic of education. In fact, I intend this to be my last mention of it. And I also intend to try not to respond to insults anymore. I'll need divine help for that.

Any of your posts never crossed my mind on the subject of education. From your past posts, you are civil, as we are on opposite sides of the sovereignty question. In fact, you are much more civil than many on the other side.

 

[DHK]

I must say, that's how I took it also.

I still believe the RCC is on the fringe of orthodoxy and in serious and grave error on some things, but I don't think it's apostate.

I am trying to be fair and objective.

There is a big difference between saying:
"The Lord has provided redemption for us, (that which I believe). He has provided access to them that believe.
and the position that the pope has taken:

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!

The above is universalism and it is heresy.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...e=StandFirm&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=link

 

[saturneptune]

Getting back to the op, is the Catholic Church apostate, maybe here is a way to look at it. While our Savior was on the cross, the spiritual and physical agony were beyond our imagination, especially when God the Father turned His head on His Son and Christ cried out "why has Thou forsaken Me?" Surely much went through His mind.

Pure speculation, but it would not at all surprise me if the RCC, which would be founded several decades later (depending on which fairy tale one believes), and how dominate that "church" would be for centuries to come, sometimes the only established church, went through our Savior's mind. In fact, I would go so far to say it caused a good bit of His pain. Apostate is not the word, if there is a stronger one, to describe the pain Christ felt for the damage, the trail of ruin, the evil, the worldliness, that this cult would do to telling others about Jesus Christ throughout the centuries. The false doctrine, the alliance with evil governments, the murders, the torture makes organized crime look like a Sunday School.

For whatever reason, God used the RCC to shape His purposes. He preserved His NT church with the weakest, most isolated churches of the day. There were no elaborate buildings, riches, Popes, or other such nonsense. When God carries out His plan with the least likely to succeed, the honor and glory goes to the Lord, as it should.

The way the posts of the Catholic Church are worded, one makes it sound like it is a holy organization that made a few errors along the way. It is nothing of the kind. The Catholic Church is not on the edge of orthodoxy as someone said, it is the essence of pure evil. Worshipping created being, teaching a salvation of works, and breaking every commandment in its relation to the established governments of the day.

As Jesus Christ said about His church, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," the RCC is the gates of hell.

 

[saturneptune]

I must say, that's how I took it also.

I still believe the RCC is on the fringe of orthodoxy and in serious and grave error on some things, but I don't think it's apostate.

I am trying to be fair and objective.

Just asking, what would make a denomination apostate? You say the RCC is at the edge, what would send them over the apostate line?

 

[Walter]

Just asking, what would make a denomination apostate? You say the RCC is at the edge, what would send them over the apostate line?

If I remember right, Thomas Helwys has said that he believes despite his belief that the Church is "in serious and grave error on some things", he still believes the Catholic Church to be creedally orthodox. I would assume that if the Church were to walk away from it's affirmations of the Apostles, Athanasian and Nicene creeds, then he would consider the Church to be officially apostate.

 

[The Biblicist]

If I remember right, Thomas Helwys has said that he believes despite his belief that the Church is "in serious and grave error on some things", he still believes the Catholic Church to be creedally orthodox. I would assume that if the Church were to walk away from it's affirmations of the Apostles, Athanasian and Nicene creeds, then he would consider the Church to be officially apostate.

How does a creed make one orthodox or unorthodox. ECT formulated a credal statement concerning salvation to fit opposing views. Catholics interpreted the terms of that statement one way and Evangelicals interpreted the same words another way. The only basis of agreement was the langauge not the meaning. Creeds are worthless unless they are definitive in regard to the langauge being used.

Rome is a cult in regard to "meaning" and totally unorthodox in regard to scriptural essentials for orthodoxy.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Any of your posts never crossed my mind on the subject of education. From your past posts, you are civil, as we are on opposite sides of the sovereignty question. In fact, you are much more civil than many on the other side.

I appreciate your post. I have the same opinion of you. I consider you one of my best friends on here.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Getting back to the op, is the Catholic Church apostate, maybe here is a way to look at it. While our Savior was on the cross, the spiritual and physical agony were beyond our imagination, especially when God the Father turned His head on His Son and Christ cried out "why has Thou forsaken Me?" Surely much went through His mind.

Pure speculation, but it would not at all surprise me if the RCC, which would be founded several decades later (depending on which fairy tale one believes), and how dominate that "church" would be for centuries to come, sometimes the only established church, went through our Savior's mind. In fact, I would go so far to say it caused a good bit of His pain. Apostate is not the word, if there is a stronger one, to describe the pain Christ felt for the damage, the trail of ruin, the evil, the worldliness, that this cult would do to telling others about Jesus Christ throughout the centuries. The false doctrine, the alliance with evil governments, the murders, the torture makes organized crime look like a Sunday School.

For whatever reason, God used the RCC to shape His purposes. He preserved His NT church with the weakest, most isolated churches of the day. There were no elaborate buildings, riches, Popes, or other such nonsense. When God carries out His plan with the least likely to succeed, the honor and glory goes to the Lord, as it should.

The way the posts of the Catholic Church are worded, one makes it sound like it is a holy organization that made a few errors along the way. It is nothing of the kind. The Catholic Church is not on the edge of orthodoxy as someone said, it is the essence of pure evil. Worshipping created being, teaching a salvation of works, and breaking every commandment in its relation to the established governments of the day.

As Jesus Christ said about His church, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," the RCC is the gates of hell.

I would have to agree with much of what you said. I have always tried to keep an open mind about the RCC, but after getting to know a former cradle-RC who spent almost a decade in a RC seminary and him telling me that the RCC is a criminal organization, I have to take what he says seriously. He said he saw things there that he still cannot bring himself to talk about -- utter wickedness. This seminary was somehow connected to a monastery and convent.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Just asking, what would make a denomination apostate? You say the RCC is at the edge, what would send them over the apostate line?

I think if they professed the Christology of groups like the Mormons or JW's, that would do it. Or becoming pro-choice, sodomy-affirming like the mainline Protestant churches.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If I remember right, Thomas Helwys has said that he believes despite his belief that the Church is "in serious and grave error on some things", he still believes the Catholic Church to be creedally orthodox. I would assume that if the Church were to walk away from it's affirmations of the Apostles, Athanasian and Nicene creeds, then he would consider the Church to be officially apostate.

Or, as I replied to SN, becoming pro-choice and affirming homosexuality.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

How does a creed make one orthodox or unorthodox. ECT formulated a credal statement concerning salvation to fit opposing views. Catholics interpreted the terms of that statement one way and Evangelicals interpreted the same words another way. The only basis of agreement was the langauge not the meaning. Creeds are worthless unless they are definitive in regard to the langauge being used.

Rome is a cult in regard to "meaning" and totally unorthodox in regard to scriptural essentials for orthodoxy.

They are Trinitarian, affirm the bodily resurrection, pro-life and disavowing of homosexual behavior. I would say that puts them within orthodoxy, but that their beliefs about Mary, baptism, transsubstantiation, claims of being the one true church, popes, mandatory clerical celibacy, and more, put them on the edge of it.

 

[The Biblicist]

They are Trinitarian, affirm the bodily resurrection, pro-life and disavowing of homosexual behavior. I would say that puts them within orthodoxy, but that their beliefs about Mary, baptism, transsubstantiation, claims of being the one true church, popes, mandatory clerical celibacy, and more, put them on the edge of it.

You are missing the point. They are sacradotal thus a repudiation of God altogether and they are sacramental, thus a repudiation of salvation by grace through faith without works altogether (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You are missing the point. They are sacradotal thus a repudiation of God altogether and they are sacramental, thus a repudiation of salvation by grace through faith without works altogether (Eph. 2:8-10).

I think you go too far. I don't think these doctrines are a repudiation of God but rather serious errors. I think Calvinist Baptist hold serious errors, but I don't think they repudiate God.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you go too far. I don't think these doctrines are a repudiation of God but rather serious errors. I think Calvinist Baptist hold serious errors, but I don't think they repudiate God.

So you deny that sacradotalism is idoltry? What does the Bible define idoltry as? So you deny that sacramentalism is not "another gospel" that makes the chuch and ordinances inseparable from salvation? Is the gospel (good news) about what Christ does for sinners or about what sinners do for Christ????? Do you also believe in baptismal regeneration? If not, how can you deny that baptismal regeneration is a fundemental perversion of the gospel of Christ???? Is the gospel not a fundemental of orthodoxy?

 

[DHK]

I don't believe the Pope is teaching universalism. I believe that he's saying that Jesus provides redemption for everyone. However, only the people who avail themselves or accepting this redemption are saved.

However, its not a dogmatic statement nor was it said ex cathedra.

They tried to clarify his teaching, but there are two points that are very important and worth noting.

VATICAN CITY (Worthy News)– A Vatican spokesman explained Thursday that atheists are still going to perdition despite Pope Francis' homily last week that proclaimed all of us, even atheists, were capable of doing good.

"Doing good," the pope said, "is a duty … that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always."
But in an explanatory note, the Rev. Thomas Rosica wrote that Pope Francis didn't intend to spark a theological debate about the nature of salvation by his homily.
Rosica advised his fellow Romans to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to better understand the Church's teaching on who will be saved and how.
"Christ will judge with the power he has gained as the Redeemer of the world who came to bring salvation to all …," wrote Rosica. "The one Church of Christ … subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him. Only through this Church can one obtain the fullness of the means of salvation since the Lord has entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone whose head is Peter."
And since all salvation "comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body … they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her, or remain in her …"
In other words, there is no salvation for anyone, including atheists and Christians of other denominations that are outside of the Roman Catholic Church.
In his homily, however, Pope Francis declared that everyone, including atheists, have been redeemed by Christ so that all can work together to do good.
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ," said Francis. "All of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!"

http://www.worthynews.com/12312-vatican-atheists-still-going-to-hell

On the one hand only those within the RCC can be saved.

OTOH, there is universalism.

Although a Vatican spokesman has tried to reconcile this I don't think he has succeeded. Either way, both are wrong.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They tried to clarify his teaching, but there are two points that are very important and worth noting.

http://www.worthynews.com/12312-vatican-atheists-still-going-to-hell

On the one hand only those within the RCC can be saved.

OTOH, there is universalism.

Although a Vatican spokesman has tried to reconcile this I don't think he has succeeded. Either way, both are wrong.

I've explained the Catholic Position to you before about this very matter and you still don't get it. And the fact that you don't get it is you keep accusing us of both extreems. You accuses us that we are universal and you accuse us that we are exclusive. But I remember explaing the Catholic position to you on another thread and I was very clear. You just didn't want to listen.

 

[The Biblicist]

I've explained the Catholic Position to you before about this very matter and you still don't get it. And the fact that you don't get it is you keep accusing us of both extreems. You accuses us that we are universal and you accuse us that we are exclusive. But I remember explaing the Catholic position to you on another thread and I was very clear. You just didn't want to listen.

No! Like all error the Roman Catholic faith is a mire of confusion that provides alternative explanations, thus providing doors of escape from common sense and reason.