. . . . So, obviously, you didn't even bother to click on the link to the article I posted. Oh, well. Take a moment, read it. It won't hurt you . . . . really!
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is the Catholic Church officially now Apostate?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
. . . . So, obviously, you didn't even bother to click on the link to the article I posted. Oh, well. Take a moment, read it. It won't hurt you . . . . really!
I quoted verbatim the Catholic Catechism on this point! Didn't you read it? The Catholic church in black and white claims that Muslims unite with Rome in the worship of the one true God! That is utterly false! The Muslims do not believe in the God of Abraham or the God of Scripture. However, it is true that Rome and the Muslim faith are bedfellows in the same "plan of salvation" just as Rome admits in black and white.
The problem is that Rome asserts things contrary to scripture but claims they are scriptural.
841 The Church's Relationship with Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and TOGETHER WITH US they ADORE THE ONE, MERCIFUL GOD, mankind's judge on the last day." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd ed. p. 223
It does not take a theologian or a genius to see what Rome is saying here.
Here it is from the link you provided:
It is the same garbage, heresy, that is put there by Pope John Paul II.
Christ has redeemed all the world, even atheists.
John Paul II didn't do any better:
All people have become...children of God (even atheists).
This is heresy.
The bolded statement in Francis's quote is where the RCC goes wrong. It is theologically wrong, and heretical.
Here it is again:
Jesus died on the Cross to redeem us all from sin.
That statement is false. To make it true it must say: "Jesus died on the Cross to provide redemption for all mankind. He has made it available. It is efficacious only to those that believe. We are not automatically redeemed by good works. We are not automatically made the children of God through his resurrection. One cannot enter into the family of God through baptism.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Entrance into the kingdom of God comes through faith and faith alone.
There are no works involved at all. These entire quotes are absolutely heretical and go against all that the Bible teaches.
I think there is an enormous difference between what the Pope said (essentially, there is only one redeemer, Jesus Christ, who came to redeem the whole world) and what you want him to have said. Jesus came, and died, for us all, even me, regardless of my sins or my belief in Him, He still bore my sins, and those of all mankind. I don’t think we need confuse what the Pope said with Universalism- because it isn’t.
That is your opinion and that is what you would like to believe. In the two quotes I gave you something entirely differently was stated. It is not salvation by grace through faith. It is akin to universalism.
I recently read the words written in a prayer by the English Reformer Thomas Cranmer:
“Almighty God, our heavenly Father, who of thy tender mercy didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world.”
I guess this sounds like universalism to you too?
That is not what the Pope is saying as I pointed out to you.
John the Baptist said, in John 1:29:
"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world."
He does. But you must believe in him. It is only efficacious when one takes the action of faith, believing in his atoning blood. As John pointed to Christ as the sacrificial lamb, we like the OT saints who put their faith in sacrificing daily, must put our faith in the One ultimate sacrifice that can take away our sins. It is a gift, but the gift must be accepted by faith. If it is not accepted (and it isn't by atheists and Muslims, et. al.), then Hell awaits.
The statements that the Pope made are in direct contradiction to the RCC's belief in Hell.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You realize of course - that on a Baptist board - the Bible itself should carry more weight than "Thomas Cranmer".
1John 2:2 Christ "Is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
in Christ,
Bob
Yes, and it carries more weight than the ramblings of Ellen White :smilewinkgrin:
Actually, I could have (shoulda) included the scripture reference Cranmer drew his prayer from.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hmm - so you are saying I should stop quoting Ellen White so much and start quoting the Bible on this board??:laugh:
In all seriousness - there is one guy on this board - who almost every time I quote the Bible - responds with a quote "of himself" and a complaint and then blames the text I quote on Ellen White.
Responding to objections could not get any easier than in that case.
in Christ,
Bob
His death did NOT redeem all mankind as the Pope advocates, THAT is Universalism!
That would be due to you quoting the bible, but really holding to what Ellen White taught, NOT what bible teaches!
As DHK pointed outto you, the Pope is now declaring Universalism, as the RCC is salvation to all now, except ex catholics and those like me who reject its teachings!
No, Yeshua1, lets try this again. OK? Your charges of universalism and DHK's are both un-founded and here is why. The difficulties with his sermon, according to DHK, stem entirely from his use of the words “children of God” which in the NT have a special meaning Rom. 9:8; 1 John 5:2; Rom. 8:14-17. They refer to those who have already confessed, through God’s grace, their faith in Christ crucified, whereas the Pope was using the term to be the equivalent of “made in the image of God”—which would refer to all humans, believers or not. DHK assumed he was using the NT meaning of those words.
Thus, in traditional NT theology, the “children of God” have been both redeemed and saved (justified), through Jesus’ sacrifice and God’s grace inducing their faith in his resurrection. It thus makes no sense to certain theologically trained ears to speak of Jesus “redeeming” the children of God, because he not only redeemed them through his death on the Cross, but he saved them through their faith in him as their redeemer, by the grace of God. By his use of those words (“children of God”) in the sense of “made in God’s image”, the Pope’s homily appears to conflate the latter (“made in God’s image”, which is a characteristic of atheists and believers alike, as the humans they both are) with the justification which believers achieve through their faith in Christ, through the grace of God extended to them. And as atheists well know, they do not have (or even ask) God’s grace so long as they profess atheism.
I happen to think that the Pope was at most chargeable with a loose use of theological terminology, however, Yeshua1, you think this is liberalism raising it's ugly head in the 'RCC'.
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the Roem church states that God will redeem/save ALL who "work with the grace granted them bygod", so if a sincere Buddhist/Muslim?Jew has good works and practices charity, the Lord saves them... IF they know RCC theology and reject that for own religion, still lost, but if ignorant of RCC teachings, Godlooks with favor of them working with light they have, almost as if God sees in their sincerity of faith they would obvously accept RCC doctrines if exposed to them!
Universalism !
No. This grace can be dispensed to those who have not heard the gospel but who are seeking truth both in word and deed.
So, your concern with the pope is over the Pope’s beliefs about Christ’s redemption for every human being, (and that is Catholic doctrine) and, as I understand the catechism, the Redemptive work of Christ was for the whole world which is only accessed personally by and through the graces dispensed by the Church to individuals who turn to her. However, one of those graces is the ability, by grace, to do good meritoriously. This grace can be dispensed to those who have not heard the gospel. You, seem to believe that the pope is saying that all who 'do good' are saved, even athiest. That is not what he was saying. Everyone being redeemed is not the same as everyone being saved. I encourage you to go back and read the one article (for which I provided a link) and one blog entry (for which I provided link). The latter was written by a non-Catholic. It really clears this up.
You are in error here.
Even in the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration, which the RCC erroneously teaches, the infant magically and superstitiously becomes "born again" which is regenerated. At that time he is both redeemed and saved. It is an event, not a process, as is easily demonstrated with the baptism of an infant, though not Biblically correct.
However, according to the Bible:
If one is redeemed, one is saved.
If one is saved, he is redeemed.
You cannot so easily dissect the two. There is no such thing as "being" redeemed. Either you are or you are not. Which are you? And why? How do you know? On what basis are you redeemed, or is one redeemed? That is the question one must ask. It is not on the basis of good works, and that is where the Pope is wrong.
I agree with "if one is saved, he is redeemed' but not 'íf one is redeemed, one is saved' as we must respond to the gospel. There is a distinction between these two terms. And this has been consistantly taught by Christ's Holy Church for 2,000 years. Our redemption was paid for by Christ's suffering on the cross. However, it is still up to individual hearts to accept that redemption via conversion of our hearts and the keeping of Christ's commands. For example, John 3:16 teaches that Jesus did redeem the world, but that there is a condition of belief placed upon each soul. It is not automatic. Jesus Himself, just before He ascended, taught that "all who believe and are baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). He said this after He appeared in His glorified Body and the sacrifice was complete. All mankind is redeemed, but only those who accept the terms of that redemption are saved. Two steps: 1. Suffering and death = redemption, and 2. Belief and Baptism = salvation. And I will add one more thing. We are not saved because of Christ's death. His death redeemed all, but applies only to those who are baptized and believe. He opened the door to salvation by his death, but we must still walk through the door by making a conscious decision. The pope never said that our salvation comes from 'good works' as you say he did. And, I understand how you arrive at your thinking because you see 'all redeemed' to mean 'all saved'. What he said was that the 'all who are redeemed' can “do good” things, as common grace to know and sometimes do God’s law has been liberally bestowed'. Not that all are saved!
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You appear to be trying to make my point for me.
But no matter - I am not at all complaining about your choice to run from these Bible texts and blame them on Ellen White.
You realize of course - that on a Baptist board - the Bible itself should carry more weight than "Thomas Cranmer".
1John 2:2 Christ "Is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD - yes really" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
1Peter 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
John 16 The Holy Spirit is sent to "convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
You may choose to run from these texts and blame all on Ellen White if you choose to continue doing that - you have free will after all.
in Christ,
Bob
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No he did not redeem the world. John 3:16 does not say that.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Nothing is said here about redemption.
Here is what the Bible says about redemption. This is written by Peter and written to believers. Notice the "you," meaning believers.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
--We (believers) are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ.
That is the penalty that he paid for us, believers.
Why is it paid for believers? Because only believers have accepted it as beneficial, as efficacious.
The blood does not do an atheist or a Muslim any good, because he rejects it. They both reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Therefore the blood of Christ, that redemptive sacrifice does not cover them. It does NOT redeem them. It is only applicable to those who come to Christ. They alone are redeemed.
Christ has not redeemed the world.
That is universalism; something that the Pope has clearly stated.
Infants can't believe can they? Atheists and Muslims don't believe and will not believe.
That is heresy!!!
Only those that have trusted in the shed blood of Jesus are redeemed.
Only they can say and make the claim that they are "the redeemed."
1. One must believe to be redeemed.
2. Baptism may get you wet; but it won't get you saved.
You are not reading what he said.
He said that (as you say) Christ has redeemed all (a serious heresy).
And that heretical definition of redemption is available to atheists simply by doing good works.
He is a universalist. He might as well grant Hitler and Stalin salvation post-mortem.