Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Hobie]

yes this is a contrary reaction to the teaching of the conscious unending torment of the damned. Annihilation.
The other reaction is the teaching of the universal atonement of Christ which ultimately is granted to all men without exception.

Both of these views are contrary to scripture,

The wicked will be separated from God forever and ever, it is the end of sin and sinners as they will be destroyed and perish. Take a look at the words of Christ Himself...

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[HankD]

The wicked will be separated from God forever and ever, it is the end of sin and sinners as they will be destroyed and perish. Take a look at the words of Christ Himself...

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

uh, that's what i said...

 

[Hobie]

uh, that's what i said...

Got to show especially on doctrine, what scripture has or else as you can see, its just a 'opinion' and everyone here seems to have one rather than use whats written.

 

[Revmitchell]

Got to show especially on doctrine, what scripture has or else as you can see, its just a 'opinion' and everyone here seems to have one rather than use whats written.

Everyone here except you huh. Thank God He sent you to us tobdtraighten us all out. Your humility is a shining example of where we should all be. If only we could.

 

[HankD]

Got to show especially on doctrine, what scripture has or else as you can see, its just a 'opinion' and everyone here seems to have one rather than use whats written.

rater than the hell fire passages of hell i prefer those which point to the one who has power over it...

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Hobie]

rater than the hell fire passages of hell i prefer those which point to the one who has power over it...

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Very true, but we also have to clear out the wrong ideas and views that have been picked up, so that is what Gods Word is for.

John 17:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

Very true, but we also have to clear out the wrong ideas and views that have been picked up, so that is what Gods Word is for.

John 17:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Revelations 14:11

 

[HankD]

Very true, but we also have to clear out the wrong ideas and views that have been picked up, so that is what Gods Word is for.

John 17:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

yes and that is why folks should consider the Revelation passage i quoted

 

[Hobie]

Revelations 14:11

Lets look more at the whole of the Bible, and see what it shows us. Lets see what it shows as 'unquenchable fire'...

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43, 44.

Some ask what is the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We see it also in “But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath-day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath-day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27.

But is it still burning today, we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.

After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out.

 

[Hobie]

The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as we find same expression is used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

In this use for the fire of "eternal" "everlasting" many are applying modern definitions without reference to their ancient contextual usage and violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. So what example is it of?

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.

The eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. This is a eternal fire as like Sodom and Gomorrha they will be no more as it will burn the wicked to ashes.

 

[Alcott]

After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out.

Then where does the smoke come from? A machine? Like Lawrence Welk used a bubble machine?

 

[Hobie]

Then where does the smoke come from? A machine? Like Lawrence Welk used a bubble machine?

So do you believe a loving God will burn people alive and keep burning them some for a indefinite period. Of course not, so we have to understand what a eternal fire means. The wicked do not get eternal life as thats what it would be, and the Bible does not teach that. Look closely what scripture shows that happens to the wicked..

Psalm 1:4
The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

Ezekiel 33:8
"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

Job 13:16
"This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.

John 9:31
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Isaiah 48:22
"There is no peace for the wicked," says the LORD.

Isaiah 57:21
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

Isaiah 3:11
Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

Psalm 37:9-10
For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish--like smoke they vanish away.

Psalm 37:34
Wait for the LORD and keep His way, And He will exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you will see it.

2 Samuel 23:6
"But the worthless, every one of them will be thrust away like thorns, Because they cannot be taken in hand;

Job 18:5
"Indeed, the light of the wicked goes out, And the flame of his fire gives no light.

Job 11:20
"But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And there will be no escape for them; And their hope is to breathe their last."

Job 21:28
"For you say, 'Where is the house of the nobleman, And where is the tent, the dwelling places of the wicked?'

Like smoke they vanish, but God is all powerful and could bring them back. But this death is the 'second death', a complete and final separation from God, which is for eternity.

 

[Yeshua1]

Lets look more at the whole of the Bible, and see what it shows us. Lets see what it shows as 'unquenchable fire'...

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43, 44.

Some ask what is the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We see it also in “But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath-day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath-day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27.

But is it still burning today, we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.

After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out.

You quote OT law for sabbath, ignore Ellen White and heed Apostles of Christ regarding no Sabbath day for the church!

 

[Yeshua1]

The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as we find same expression is used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

In this use for the fire of "eternal" "everlasting" many are applying modern definitions without reference to their ancient contextual usage and violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. So what example is it of?

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.

The eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. This is a eternal fire as like Sodom and Gomorrha they will be no more as it will burn the wicked to ashes.

When Jesus died in the physical body, did he then go to paradise?

 

[Yeshua1]

So do you believe a loving God will burn people alive and keep burning them some for a indefinite period. Of course not, so we have to understand what a eternal fire means. The wicked do not get eternal life as thats what it would be, and the Bible does not teach that. Look closely what scripture shows that happens to the wicked..

Psalm 1:4
The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

Ezekiel 33:8
"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

Job 13:16
"This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.

John 9:31
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Isaiah 48:22
"There is no peace for the wicked," says the LORD.

Isaiah 57:21
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

Isaiah 3:11
Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

Psalm 37:9-10
For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish--like smoke they vanish away.

Psalm 37:34
Wait for the LORD and keep His way, And He will exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you will see it.

2 Samuel 23:6
"But the worthless, every one of them will be thrust away like thorns, Because they cannot be taken in hand;

Job 18:5
"Indeed, the light of the wicked goes out, And the flame of his fire gives no light.

Job 11:20
"But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And there will be no escape for them; And their hope is to breathe their last."

Job 21:28
"For you say, 'Where is the house of the nobleman, And where is the tent, the dwelling places of the wicked?'

Like smoke they vanish, but God is all powerful and could bring them back. But this death is the 'second death', a complete and final separation from God, which is for eternity.

yes, eternal separation as in they still exist forever!
Second death refers to not knowing Lord Jesus, so no eternal life as in relationship with God, just forever in darkness, as God is light!

 

[Alcott]

So do you believe a loving God will burn people alive and keep burning them some for a indefinite period. Of course not, so we have to understand what a eternal fire means.

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name [Revelation 14:11].

No rest day or night? What does that mean in regard to someone who does not exist?

Starting, I suppose, with universalists, those who believe in Jesus Christ but want so intensely for the 'bad' things he told us about consequences to have been misunderstood, people do ignore what they don't like. Universalists believe everyone is saved, though they are not definite as to what saved means, using the passage that says 'in Adam all die and in Christ all shall be made alive,' as you use 'fear him who will destroy body and soul.' Others ignore Jesus' divorce and remarriage admonitions, that servants must obey their masters,... To someone to whom God is a benevolent grandfather and Jesus is always a baby in a manger and a mild lamb, since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, they find in the minds that god they're looking for.

 

[Yeshua1]

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name [Revelation 14:11].

No rest day or night? What does that mean in regard to someone who does not exist?

Starting, I suppose, with universalists, those who believe in Jesus Christ but want so intensely for the 'bad' things he told us about consequences to have been misunderstood, people do ignore what they don't like. Universalists believe everyone is saved, though they are not definite as to what saved means, using the passage that says 'in Adam all die and in Christ all shall be made alive,' as you use 'fear him who will destroy body and soul.' Others ignore Jesus' divorce and remarriage admonitions, that servants must obey their masters,... To someone to whom God is a benevolent grandfather and Jesus is always a baby in a manger and a mild lamb, since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, they find in the minds that god they're looking for.

The big problem is that the lost will have ruin and destruction upon them, but the biblical concept does not mean cease to exist, but that they will exist separated from God forever, as that is ultimate ruin....

 

[Salty]

SIX hour warning
This thread will close no sooner than 10 am edt / 7 am pdt

 

[Salty]

SIX hour warning
This thread will close no sooner than 10 am edt / 7 am pdt

This is closed