Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[HeirofSalvation]

HOS did NOT respond to the SCRIPTURE that was posted that proves hell is eternal. He's all talk, no WALK.

Because I don't deny that the Lake of fire is "Eternal".
The fires of God's wrath are described as "eternal".
Everywhere the fate of the damned is described they are described as going into an "Everlasting Fire".
The assumption you are making is that God intentionally grants people eternal life after being cast into it.
You don't read closely.
You just make assumptions about what other people believe and parrot conditioned responses like a Pavlovian dog.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

YOU'RE SO SILLY !
Yeshua didn't use the word "hell"; He used the Greek word 'hades', & in other verses, 'gehenna'. The English translators used hell ! Apparently, you don't know the difference !

I'm talking about the "Yeshua" who is posting on the internet right now, "SPORTZZ FAN" Not Jesus Christ. I know the words Jesus used. Unlike you, I actually can read some Greek. You're not even reading the thread closely.

 

[robycop3]

I'm talking about the "Yeshua" who is posting on the internet right now, "SPORTZZ FAN" Not Jesus Christ. I know the words Jesus used. Unlike you, I actually can read some Greek. You're not even reading the thread closely.

Then, if you can read Greek, you should know hades is not hell. And it should be COMMON SENSE that if hell is eternal, then it'll be eternally occupied as Scripture says. Your argument is with SCRIPTURE, not us.

 

[robycop3]

No, you assume it. And it's hardly self-evident that that is what the passages teaches. It is a very weak passage to assert unequivocally that degrees of punishment are being taught here.
And an eternal process of punishing with infinite amounts of suffering cannot justify a limited number of stripes.

"Many" and "Few". Cannot be explained if one is continuously being tortured for eternity. There are always and infinite number of "stripes" is ETC is true.

You haven't thought about this much have you?

I believe "more tolerable", Jesus' words, explains it all.

Hitler & Stalin are gonna have a lot worse time than the town drunk. And it'll be for ever. Remember, God's justice is PERFECT.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Then, if you can read Greek, you should know hades is not hell. And it should be COMMON SENSE that if hell is eternal, then it'll be eternally occupied as Scripture says. Your argument is with SCRIPTURE, not us.

"hell" is not a Biblical term. at all.
I don't think we should even use it at all, because it simply is not a Theological equivalent to hades Gehenna Sheol or anything else. Even Sheol and Hades are not equivalent, so it isn't helpful to try to translate them with an English word (especially the same English word) which translations do.

I have no argument with Scripture. I have studied this topic quite extensively for some years now. Probably much more than you have, only because most people don't study the topic in depth at all, even most Theologians spend little real time on the topic. I know that what I believe I believe only because of the overwhelming testimony of Scripture. And Scripture is overwhelmingly not in favor of the damned receiving eternal life as you believe.

 

[robycop3]

Punishment is eternal.
Death is eternal by it's very nature.

ECT teaches us to read "punishment" as "punishing".
And assume that it must be an endless process.
Notice you have been trained to read this as everlasting "punishment", instead of "everlasting fire".
The text says that the fire is everlasting.....that doesn't mean that people cast into a lake of fire aren't destroyed.

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Nothing further needed.

 

[robycop3]

"hell" is not a Biblical term. at all.
I don't think we should even use it at all, because it simply is not a Theological equivalent to hades Gehenna Sheol or anything else. Even Sheol and Hades are not equivalent, so it isn't helpful to try to translate them with an English word (especially the same English word) which translations do.

I have no argument with Scripture. I have studied this topic quite extensively for some years now. Probably much more than you have, only because most people don't study the topic in depth at all, even most Theologians spend little real time on the topic. I know that what I believe I believe only because of the overwhelming testimony of Scripture. And Scripture is overwhelmingly not in favor of the damned receiving eternal life as you believe.

Dictionary definition of 'hell' - a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

And many Bible versions besides the KJV call the LOF "hell".

Sheol & hades are used for the temporary abode of the souls of the dead, literally meaning "the grave".

Learn those simple facts !

 

[Yeshua1]

Dictionary definition of 'hell' - a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

And many Bible versions besides the KJV call the LOF "hell".

Sheol & hades are used for the temporary abode of the souls of the dead, literally meaning "the grave".

Learn those simple facts !

The same greek term used to describe how lg a duration heaven is eternal, is also used to define how long hell will be!
Sda and Jw are the primary holders to this doctrine of hell as temporary, but bad that some Christians also have bought into it!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

What cult do you represent, and what is your view of the stingy rich man in Hades in Luke 16?

From the OP, why do you conclude Hobie is a member of a cult?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Jesus claimed its the place with eternal torment, so He is right, and you are wrong!

I must have missed something in the OP. Why do you say Hobie is wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

From the OP, why do you conclude Hobie is a member of a cult?

I could be mistaken, but believe is member of the Sda church, which I consider to be a Cult!

 

[Yeshua1]

I must have missed something in the OP. Why do you say Hobie is wrong?

he denies eternal Hell....

 

[Yeshua1]

We await the coming messiah in the grave, not any 'bosom of Abraham'...
John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Paul disagrees with you, as death means that our soul goes right to be with Jesus!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Dictionary definition of 'hell' - a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

And many Bible versions besides the KJV call the LOF "hell".

Sheol & hades are used for the temporary abode of the souls of the dead, literally meaning "the grave".

Learn those simple facts !

Those aren't "simple facts"...
Here's the reality.
Often "hell" is used to refer to the temporary abode of the dead in the intermediate state...
Often it is conflated with the final state of the non-believer after the judgement....More biblically described as the lake of fire.

Frankly, in real parlance..."hell" refers to whatever the user wants it to refer to.
I get that you think you understand something about this topic, and that you have meaningful knowledge of the Biblical teachings about the final state of the damned...But, your insistence on debating your reductionist definitions of "Hell" is not helpful to the conversation, and irrelevant to the real argument.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Nothing further needed.

A lot further is needed. And people who have actually studied the topic know that. You don't know that, because you haven't meaningfully studied that passage before and don't really know how to.

But, I've heard the non-arguments like this for ages.
You not only assume too much when you read that passage, you aren't even aware of it.
You add presuppositions mentally that you're unaware you add to it; and you are unteachable because you already know everything in your mind.

 

[robycop3]

Those aren't "simple facts"...
Here's the reality.
Often "hell" is used to refer to the temporary abode of the dead in the intermediate state...
Often it is conflated with the final state of the non-believer after the judgement....More biblically described as the lake of fire.

Frankly, in real parlance..."hell" refers to whatever the user wants it to refer to.
I get that you think you understand something about this topic, and that you have meaningful knowledge of the Biblical teachings about the final state of the damned...But, your insistence on debating your reductionist definitions of "Hell" is not helpful to the conversation, and irrelevant to the real argument.

You're trying to make that Scripture say something it doesn't While I'm not saying you're a member of a cult, a mark of such a member is to add new, man-made meanings to certain Scriptures.

Here are Rev. 14:9 & 10, to show nothing else can be made outta V.11-9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The meaning of those 3 verses is very plain. They say what they say. Any new meanings for them are wrong.

 

[robycop3]

Those aren't "simple facts"...
Here's the reality.
Often "hell" is used to refer to the temporary abode of the dead in the intermediate state...
Often it is conflated with the final state of the non-believer after the judgement....More biblically described as the lake of fire.

Frankly, in real parlance..."hell" refers to whatever the user wants it to refer to.
I get that you think you understand something about this topic, and that you have meaningful knowledge of the Biblical teachings about the final state of the damned...But, your insistence on debating your reductionist definitions of "Hell" is not helpful to the conversation, and irrelevant to the real argument.

Hell is the LOF, as the LOF is the place of eternal punishment, which is the definition of hell. No amounta stretching will get you away from that fact.

 

[robycop3]

The same greek term used to describe how lg a duration heaven is eternal, is also used to define how long hell will be!
Sda and Jw are the primary holders to this doctrine of hell as temporary, but bad that some Christians also have bought into it!

The Scriptures I quoted, Rev. 14: 9-11 are quite plain. I rest my argument on those Scriptures, plus the ones others have quoted above.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The Scriptures I quoted, Rev. 14: 9-11 are quite plain. I rest my argument on those Scriptures, plus the ones others have quoted above.

I know......good for you.

 

[Alcott]

From the OP, why do you conclude Hobie is a member of a cult?

Because the marks of a cult are there... An attack on a belief he obviously expects his hearers/readers to have; long and selective quoting of scripture; redefining or delimiting biblical terms and phrases to suit his own beliefs-- example: destroy and destruction he uses to mean death-- nonexistence; while that was also used by God at the flood, as he said He will destroy the earth with water, when the earth did not cease to exist [Genesis 6:13; Genesis 9:11].