Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Hobie]

A maggot....
Maggots only feed on dead flesh.
For thousands of years, doctors have used maggots to clean wounds because maggots only feed on corpses...
They WILL NOT eat living flesh.
I'm glad you brought up Isaiah 66:
The passage is entirely about dead corpses:
Isa 66:16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
God shall, in his wrath, slay the ungodly, and their worm (maggot) shall not die, but consume all. It will be abhorent to all who see this.That is Bible.

Please show me the Scripture where God says that the unrighteous will not be destroyed and eaten by maggots....
But, the one where they are gifted Eternal Life as you assert.

I couldn't have said it better...

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Again, in that passage, "hell" is a KJV mistranslation of 'hades'.

Well, the issue is the translation into Greek of Hebrew, a simple explanation is that “Sheol" is a Hebrew word used for the abode of the dead or grave. The word "Hades", the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology, was in fact substituted for "Sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek . The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "Hades" to refer to the abode of the dead. “Hades" is also translated “Hell” in many English Bibles, including the KJV. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death, and Hell [Hades].” It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some Bibles leave the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here’s a key point: in Revelation 20:14 “Hades”(“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” Thus “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire.” Thus Revelation 20:14 could properly be translated,“death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.” To make it simple,“Hades” literally means “the grave.” Look at 1 Corinthians 15:55:
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

If you look in any Strong’s Concordance, you’ll discover that the original Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.”

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I pointed out that 'hell' is a mistranslation of 'hades' in the KJV. Don't believe it?

"hell" is always a bad translation of hades....
I already said that in my post 76
You don't need to bother spewing your KJV derangement syndrome on this thread. That trash belongs on the translations board where no one cares to read it all again.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Again, in that passage, "hell" is a KJV mistranslation of 'hades'.

The KJV isn't the only translation which translates that way.
And I know it's a bad translation. No English Bible should ever use that word.
But your KJV Derangement Syndrome belongs on the translations board. I used that translation because that is the word that Yeshua is using.
He isn't using the word "Hades" He is using the word "hell".
That's why it's appropriate to respond with a translation which uses the word "hell".

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Jesus, speaking of Capernaum, said that it would be more tolerable for Sodom, Tyre, & Sidon than for Capernaum. This is found in six different verses.

Yes....
So what?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

In that verse, "hell" is a KJV mistranslation of 'hades'. Such goofs & booboos is why I don't use the KJV very much.
"Hell" is the lake of fire. "Hades" is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead.

No, "Hell" is not the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death.
It is conflating the Lake of Fire with the English word "hell" (which no translation should use) which is precisely Yeshua's problem.
You simply want to beat up on the KJV. Do that on the translations board please and don't go off topic.
Everyone already knows about your irrational hatred of the King James Bible, no one cares to hear about it. Relegate it to the translations thread where everyone can safely ignore it.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, they paint a picture of corpses.....
Not whatever you said.

"Hell" is not a Biblical term...but "hades" is...
and it is cast into a lake of fire

I've shown this repeatedly from Scripture and you insist on conflating those two concepts.....Because you do not, nor ever have cared much for the testament of Scripture,

Jesus warned us that Hell was and is eternal. And that it is a terrible thing to fall under judgment of the living God...
the classic historical position of the Church is that Hell is eternal, only cults such as JW and Sa have seen it as being otherwise!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Jesus warned us that Hell was and is eternal.

Jesus never heard of this pagan word you use called "hell".
Whether or not it is eternal does not mean that those cast into it will live forever in it. What matters is what the Bible actually teaches. Jesus says nothing about people living forever without being born again as you teach. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life.

And that it is a terrible thing to fall under judgment of the living God...

No one denies that.

the classic historical position of the Church is that Hell is eternal,

Only since about 600 A.D....
Irenaeus and Athanasius did not teach ECT for instance.
Yes, the classic Roman Catholic position is that of Eternal Conscious Torment.
They also pray to Mary, and preach a false gospel.

only cults such as JW and Sa have seen it as being otherwise!

And Muslims, Mormons and Roman Catholics share your view, what's the point of this line of argument?
Also, Evangelical believers also often disagree with ECT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus never heard of this pagan word you use called "hell".
Whether or not it is eternal does not mean that those cast into it will live forever in it. What matters is what the Bible actually teaches. Jesus says nothing about people living forever without being born again as you teach. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life.

No one denies that.

Only since about 600 A.D....
Irenaeus and Athanasius did not teach ECT for instance.
Yes, the classic Roman Catholic position is that of Eternal Conscious Torment.
They also pray to Mary, and preach a false gospel.

And Muslims, Mormons and Roman Catholics share your view, what's the point of this line of argument?
Also, Evangelical believers also often disagree with ECT.

The Antichrist and false prophet will be in hell 1000 years in torment, per scriptures, and satan himself will be cast down with them to suffer torment forever, per the scriptures...

 

[tyndale1946]

Jesus never heard of this pagan word you use called "hell".
Whether or not it is eternal does not mean that those cast into it will live forever in it. What matters is what the Bible actually teaches. Jesus says nothing about people living forever without being born again as you teach. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life.

No one denies that.

Only since about 600 A.D....
Irenaeus and Athanasius did not teach ECT for instance.
Yes, the classic Roman Catholic position is that of Eternal Conscious Torment.
They also pray to Mary, and preach a false gospel.

And Muslims, Mormons and Roman Catholics share your view, what's the point of this line of argument?
Also, Evangelical believers also often disagree with ECT.

Okay I'll bite but could then you please explain Matthew 25?... Brother Glen

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now according to this is not everlasting punishment eternal?

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay I'll bite but could then you please explain Matthew 25?... Brother Glen

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now according to this is not everlasting punishment eternal?

Revelation 14:11/Revelation 20:10 agrees with you here!

 

[tyndale1946]

Revelation 14:11/Revelation 20:10 agrees with you here!

Yes it does!... I forgot those two... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes it does!... I forgot those two... Brother Glen

Out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, so guess that proves hell is eternal!

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes it does!... I forgot those two... Brother Glen

What I personally see in it, is they didn't care anything for Gods people, so why should God care for them!

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

As he has been doing all along when he first made man and at the end of time, he will!... Brother Glen

 

[robycop3]

No, "Hell" is not the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death.
It is conflating the Lake of Fire with the English word "hell" (which no translation should use) which is precisely Yeshua's problem.
You simply want to beat up on the KJV. Do that on the translations board please and don't go off topic.
Everyone already knows about your irrational hatred of the King James Bible, no one cares to hear about it. Relegate it to the translations thread where everyone can safely ignore it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Hell IS the LOF. And 'hell' IS a KJV mastranslation of 'hades' in several places..

From your KJV_Matt. 5:[color=red=]29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.[/color]

The Greek for 'hell' here is "gehenna", the LOF. This is one of several examples where the LOF is called 'hell' in the KJV. Hades can't be hell; how can hell be cast into hell ?

So much for your goofy idea.

And, I see you had NO REPLY from where I posted SCRIPTURES showing hell is eternal. But I'm not surprised. Most KJVOs have other false doctrines as well, as you've shown us here.

 

[robycop3]

Yes....
So what?

Shows degrees of punishment in hell.

 

[robycop3]

The KJV isn't the only translation which translates that way.
And I know it's a bad translation. No English Bible should ever use that word.
But your KJV Derangement Syndrome belongs on the translations board. I used that translation because that is the word that Yeshua is using.
He isn't using the word "Hades" He is using the word "hell".
That's why it's appropriate to respond with a translation which uses the word "hell".

YOU'RE SO SILLY !

Yeshua didn't use the word "hell"; He used the Greek word 'hades', & in other verses, 'gehenna'. The English translators used hell ! Apparently, you don't know the difference !

 

[robycop3]

"hell" is always a bad translation of hades....
I already said that in my post 76

So, why did you use it, then ?

You don't need to bother spewing your KJV derangement syndrome on this thread. That trash belongs on the translations board where no one cares to read it all again.

It needs to be wherever I or anyone else posts it. And you cannot prove one word of it wrong, wherever it appears.

And again, Sportzz fanzz, please note that HOS did NOT respond to the SCRIPTURE that was posted that proves hell is eternal. He's all talk, no WALK.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Okay I'll bite but could then you please explain Matthew 25?... Brother Glen
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Now according to this is not everlasting punishment eternal?

Punishment is eternal.
Death is eternal by it's very nature.

ECT teaches us to read "punishment" as "punishing".
And assume that it must be an endless process.
Notice you have been trained to read this as everlasting "punishment", instead of "everlasting fire".
The text says that the fire is everlasting.....that doesn't mean that people cast into a lake of fire aren't destroyed.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Most KJVOs have other false doctrines as well, as you've shown us here.

I'm not KJVO....
I know someone who suffers from KJV derangement syndrome, and you need to take that to the appropriate thread.

This thread is not about your personal obsession with denigrating the King James Bible.
Take it where it belongs.
Start a Roby hates the KJV thread in the appropriate forum where everyone sees the label and can ignore it, instead of forcing your unwanted opinions upon the unsuspecting.

The O.P. should ask the moderators to take care of this.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Shows degrees of punishment in hell.

No, you assume it. And it's hardly self-evident that that is what the passages teaches. It is a very weak passage to assert unequivocally that degrees of punishment are being taught here.
And an eternal process of punishing with infinite amounts of suffering cannot justify a limited number of stripes.

"Many" and "Few". Cannot be explained if one is continuously being tortured for eternity. There are always and infinite number of "stripes" is ETC is true.

You haven't thought about this much have you?