Are you going to answer either of these q's?
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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
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Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
The first 'question' (sic: 'cult') is like attempting to answer, 'Have you stopped beating your spouse yet?', and thus carries a biased apriori of admission to guilt, etc. So not worth the time to even bother, since it is designed to fail from the start, and you already made up your mind about it.
As to the second half, Luke 16's "rich man and Lazarus" is a parable, amidst a series of parables, beginning all the way back in Luke 14, wherein, the reward (recompense) comes at the respective resurrection, not before.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Very true, the parables were a vehicle that Jesus often used to teach a point. So lets go over the 'bosom of Abraham' as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.
Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.
While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)
Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.
Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.
To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.
Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.
Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.
1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.
2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.
3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."The rich man and Lazarus - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software
Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.
While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)
Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.
Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.
To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.
Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.
Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.
1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.
2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.
3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."The rich man and Lazarus - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So do we go to the 'bosom of Abraham', of course not, it was a parable. So lets look more closely at what a parable is, here is a great explanation:
"What does the word “parable” mean?
We’ll inquire of Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Definitions. The greek word is “parabole” and the definition is:
parabolē:
From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
Here we understand a parable to be a story, or narrative. It can be fictitious, but as we examine some of those parables, like the story of the prodigal son, or the story of the Good Samaritan, we can obviously expect a parable to use common, realistic objects or scenarios. A parable is not just a story. It is meant to teach truths and convey important moral lessons.
As an example of a fictitious parable, that is, a story that is not necessarily true, or true to reality, we consider the story of the talking trees:
Judges 9:8-15
(8) The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
(9) But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
(10) And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
(11) But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
(12) Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
(13) And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
(14) Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
(15) And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
Obviously trees don’t talk. Yet trees were used in the story to point not only to the lesson that people sometimes settle for the worst, as when the men of Shechem chose Abimelech for their king, a man who killed his brothers, Jerubbaals sons, who before had fought for them (verse 17); but also includes a prediction of a future event (compare verse 15 with verses 49 and 54), two elements which were often included in Jesus’ parables.
A parable, therefore, can be:
(1) a true story
(2) an untrue story with common reality objects and scenarios
(3) a fictitious story with unrealistic scenarios
All conveying a lesson and sometimes a prophecy....
...Point 2 further reveals how they must be a parable, for the verse says Lazarus was placed into the bosom of Abraham. Can you imagine if this were not a parable, the people saved that would today supposedly be in his bosom? Would these all fit?
We continue:
Luke 16:23
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Here we collect point 3. By looking upward and by acknowledging Abraham and Lazarus, we know his mind is working and his thoughts are active. But the bible tells us that when a person dies, before the resurrection of course, they’re “thoughts perish.” –Psalm 146:4. In the grave, where we all go when we die, there is neither work “nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom…” –Ecclesiastes 8:10. “The living” said the wise king” know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything…” –Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Next comes verses 24 and 25:
Luke 16:24-25
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
From these verses we can gather more points that tells us this is a parable:
point 4: Asks for a drop of water
point 5: Communicates with those in heaven
point 6: Those in heaven are able to view the activities of those burning in hell
In a true story; one would ask for far more then a drop of water. Then we have two worlds contacting each other, something similar to spiritualism, the belief that the dead can contact the living, or vise versa. This of course can’t be the case, for such is prohibited (see Deuteronomy 18:10-11, Revelation 21:8). If Abraham were really communicating with the dead then he is violating scripture while he is in heaven. And with point 6, how can it truly be said that all tears will be wiped away from every eye (Revelation 21:4), if a believer in heaven will throughout eternity be able to see a lost loved one burning in hell?
It’s become abundantly clear through our examination of the surrounding context of the parable, and the context of the parable itself, that this must be a parable. Otherwise it would contradict the rest of scripture. Furthermore it would contradict Jesus, who himself said that it is in the “end of the world” that the wicked will be rewarded with fire.
Similar to the parable of the trees, this story must also be fictional. Heaven is not Abraham’s bosom, nor is it realistic to believe that someone burning all around from head to toe would simply ask for a finger dip of water. The idea that people in heaven can communicate with people in Hell is itself fictional, and is found in ancient pagan beliefs which were prohibited by God.
Having concluded that the story of the Rich man and Lazarus must be a parable, our next step is to find…
The meaning of the parable.
Note that verse 14 tells us that the Pharisees were within the audience. In this verse we read that the Pharisees were “covetous.” It seems fitting; therefore, that Jesus would give a parable about a covetous rich man. As the rich man was abundantly rich, so were the Jews. They not only had riches in materials, despite their Roman bondage (Deuteronomy 28:11), but more importantly, they were rich in the knowledge of the mysteries of God, for “unto them was committed the oracles of God” –Romans 3:2.
Then we find how the Rich man addresses Abraham as his father (Luke 16:24). This was something the Jews held claim to:
John 8:39
(39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:53
(53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
This Parable was directed towards them. The rich man represented the greedy Jews.
As we see from the attitude the Jews had against Jesus healings on the Sabbath, and against his teaching the truth, even though they had the ability to be just as gentle and truthful as he was, they held back their truths for pride and greed. Like the rich man, when they had an opportunity to help those in need, they would not. The story Jesus shared on the good Samaritan sheds more light on this."..The Official Adventist Defense League
NOT a parable, was a real story of real people!
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So you are going to the 'bosom of Abraham'?
that was pre resurrection what happened to those saved and awaiting the coming messiah!
add a little more context Hobie... and it looks like a present tense situation.
John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Yes, the time was even then for "resurrection", both physical and spiritual. Yet a resurrection is not a carrying to, ascending to, nor entering into, Heaven.
For instance , Lazarus (of Martha and Mary) was resurrected (either before, or after the parable, the Bible does not say). He did not enter Heaven (yet), and is even now in the grave awaiting the greater resurrection. Many were spiritually resurrected to newness of Life, but they did not yet enter Heaven. Therefore, consider that resurrection, is not the same as entering into Heaven. There is also no resurrection seen in the parable of "the rich man and Lazarus".
let's let SCRIPTURE answer the OP question, & put an end to the false Seven-Day-Adlibber doctrine :
Rev. 20:1010 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev. 20:1010 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as we find same expression is used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.
In this use for the fire of "eternal" "everlasting" many are applying modern definitions without reference to their ancient contextual usage and violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation;
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. So what example is it of.
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
The eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. This is a eternal fire as like Sodom and Gomorrha they will be no more as it will burn the wicked to ashes. Their punishment is the second death, to be no more, to perish.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Maybe that's just a parable.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 4 King James Version (KJV)
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
No ceasing or burning away!
Second death not casing to exist, but exist apart from God Himself forever!
The way I've been reading these posts in the many years I've been here... Hell is going to be full and heaven is going to be for the elect few... A remnant if you will... GIVE ME A BREAK!... You brethren err not knowing scripture... Brother Glen
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
why do you seem to delight in their suffering?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
I do not delight in their suffering, but do see eternal Hell as being necessary, in order to avoid a Hitler and a lost Granma both experiencing same date of burnt up....
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