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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
- Thread starter Hobie
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was just saying that if hell is not eternally no degrees of punishment, as Judas and Hitler warrant much more than any "normal" lost sinner, but all would get same if all just burnt up!
well not everyone - according to the Primitive Baptists "no-hellers" - a small group of Primitive Baptists who actually do believe in a TEMPORARY place called hell where Judas and Hitler (for instance) will eventually be brought to Christ and bow the knee, confess Him as Lord and enter eternity with Him.
Primitive Baptist Universalists | Mercy Upon All
both equally bad and non biblical, no eternal hell, or wicked burnt up!
true just reporting it.
We baptists seem to have our own fair share of "goofy theology"
indeed
But the evil people in S & G will be in eternal flame once they're cast into the lake of fire. Right now, they're in the flames of the 'torments' area of hades, as was the rich man in Jesus' parable.
before you say the parable was imaginary, remember, Jesus' parables were based upon REALITIES.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
The pagan Greek philosophy had made inroads into all parts of the Roman Empire and was being spread by many Hellenistic Jews. Here is a good explanation on this issue...
"The word "parable" comes from the Greek parabole, which means "to place beside," or "to draw up alongside." Jesus used parables to unfold great truths. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the profound was illumined by the simple.
I. Setting and Intent of the Parable
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees, although "publicans and sinners" were also present. The fact that Jesus talked with outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.
While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same....
Most commentators agree that this rather unique parable of the rich man and Lazarus logically belongs where it is, following the story of the unjust steward. Our Lord's description of the rich man was told with rare skill. There is no indication of anything blameworthy in his outward life. He is not depicted as voluptuous, unjust, or debauched. He was wealthy and lived in a beautiful home. Moreover, he was tolerant, for he even permitted Lazarus to beg at his gate. This rich man's place, in the social concept of the Pharisees, was assured. As a son of Abraham, the rich man had doubtless taken particular pride in his lineage. But when his life account closed, a great gulf separated him from Abraham—a gulf that was impassable. Jesus showed that his whole life had been lived in false security. Being a son of Abraham, the man naturally thought of himself as being in the kingdom of God. But Jesus revealed the fact that not only was he outside the everlasting kingdom, but he was outside forever. That is the point of the parable.....
It is evident, from Jewish writings, that the Pharisees and various others of Christ's day believed in the idea of consciousness after death. Their concept of hades had greatly changed since the days of the patriarchs and the close of the Old Testament canon. And in the time of Jesus they believed much as did the Greeks and others around them.
Reference is made, in the parable just noted, to "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22), an expression found no other place in Scripture. So far as the Bible is concerned, there is nothing to indicate where "Abraham's bosom" is, or what it signifies.
We find, however, that the expression appears in extra-Biblical literature, and that it was apparently a current concept, or tradition, of the Jewish people. Josephus, in his "Discourse Concerning Hades," states that they call "Abraham's bosom" the place of felicity to which the righteous go at death. The Talmud refers to it as "Abraham's lap" (Kiddushin 72b). It was evidently the common belief of many in the days of Jesus.
"....Rich Man and Lazarus q43.htm
The problem with that as an argument is that eternal conscious torment does not allow for degrees of punishment either.
The total amount of inflicted torment still retains the value of.....infinite.....for both Hitler and gramma.
Theoretically, some versions of annihilationism can allow for degrees of punishment, but eternal conscious suffering cannot as there is always an infinite amount of suffering remaining to be inflicted.
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"Hell" is not eternal......
The Bible is abundantly clear that it will be cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
You need to be more precise.....and actually pay attention to Biblical verbiage.
Jesus Himself stated that there will be degrees of punishment though, correct?
The lake of Fire will be eternal state for all in there....
Maybe.....That's quite debatable.
However, if that is one of the strongest reasons you prefer Eternal Conscious Torment....
it doesn't work.
Eternal Conscious Torment cannot explain degrees of suffering....
No matter how much any given member of the damned has suffered in that view, there is always an infinite amount of suffering to be continuously endured.
The classically taught understanding does not explain degrees of punishment.....just think about it.
Jesus death and resurrect bought immortality for both saved and lost, its just that the lost are shut away forever from very presence of God!
Possibly....I don't know of any passages of Scripture which teach the timeless reality of the "Lake of Fire"...
But "Hell" is indeed cast into it, to destroy it utterly, that I know.....
What do the Scriptures really teach? You tell me.
that humans live forever, either with eternal life in Christ, with Him, or spiritually dead, and apart from Him!
I can find about 1,000 verses that say that without Christ humans DO NOT live forever.
I can further find about 1,000 verses that say that Christ came to offer us "Eternal Life".....
And that those without it "perish"..
Just off the top of my head John 3:16 comes to mind.
Please offer 2 verses which state that humans "live forever".
….
Just two verses which teach that humans posses immortality by default.
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Lost sinners will face eternal ruin and destruction, not as in burnt up, but describing not having the life of Christ forever!
Agreed....
I can find a zillion verses which teach this.
Really?...
Because, the Bible usually describes them as being "burnt up"....
Exactly that.
The fact that the Eternal state of the wicked is to be thrown into a Lake of Fire is...possibly one such verse.
I'm curious for you to show one verse wherein all humans are said to "live forever" even without Christ (which is what you believe).
Please show me the 2 verses which impel you to believe that humans live forever, and cannot be deprived of life.
You believe that non-believers inherit Eternal life...
Please show me that in Scripture.
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