Is the "foresight of faith" view to only viable "Arminian" explanation?

[kyredneck]

....Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready at the quarry; and there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building. 1 Ki 6:7

.....heheh, praise the Lord!

 

[DHK]

???????

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

Yes, corporate.
Did you ever notice that the verses you reference are always directed to believers within that corporate group. When God spoke to Israel he spoke to them corporately, but individually they had to enter by faith.
We are a chosen nation, but individually each one of us must strive to be conformed to the image of Christ, just as we must strive not to be conformed to this world.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (1 Peter 2:9)
--The subject (YE) is plural. Peter addresses a corporate body. We all as one holy nation are a peculiar people that God has called out to show forth his praises. The entrance into the body is always "by faith."

 

[12strings]

I'm not sure I see the distinction? If God has predestined to save someone hasn't he predestined them to believe?

I would tend to think so, but I'm not sure that is the Arminian view. I don't think they consider God predestining people to believe, but simply God predestining to provide salvation to those in whom he forsees faith?

--> Regarding corporate election, the point I am making is that even though God included numerous people from other nations in the special relationship he had with Israel, the vast majority of people alive during OT times did not have access to God's law or blessings. It sounds as though even if God did not irresistibly call every Israelite to salvation, he at the very least decided he was going to deny the citizins of other nations basic knowledge of who God was and how to relate to him...sounds like God did not give everyone the same opportunity to believe.

He bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to all. (Rm. 11:32)

So is your view that God has in a sense "hardened" all men in their sin, but that he has then shown mercy to all, giving all the same opportunity to come out of their hardening?

 

[Skandelon]

Regarding corporate election, the point I am making is that even though God included numerous people from other nations in the special relationship he had with Israel, the vast majority of people alive during OT times did not have access to God's law or blessings. It sounds as though even if God did not irresistibly call every Israelite to salvation, he at the very least decided he was going to deny the citizins of other nations basic knowledge of who God was and how to relate to him...sounds like God did not give everyone the same opportunity to believe.

Maybe not his law, but according to Paul they had all they needed to acknowledge him as God through general revelation and conscience. Not having the law was not an excuse for their unbelief, in other words.

So is your view that God has in a sense "hardened" all men in their sin, but that he has then shown mercy to all, giving all the same opportunity to come out of their hardening?

God shows mercy to all men (Romans 11:32) He does this by inviting them all to a covenant relationship with him through faith, which they are all capable of from birth. It's only when they continually refuse to acknowledge His clearly seen and understood revelation that they will grow hardened. They are NOT born, "given over" or "hardened" they BECOME that way after time. God then may seal them in that hardened condition to accomplish a purpose through them (as he did with Israel in accomplishing the crucifixion)... more later....

 

[Winman]

I don't see that God was holding information back from other nations.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

There were Jews in every nation, so the word of God was known.

And as you read of Paul's travels, he always found and entered a synagogue there, as his manner was. (Acts 17:2)

 

[12strings]

God then may seal them in that hardened condition to accomplish a purpose through them (as he did with Israel in accomplishing the crucifixion)... more later....

Skandelon, I hope what i'm asking is not what you were planning on expounding on "later." But...

Are you saying that god sealed Israel in that hardened condition for only the short time durring the one generation that crucified Christ? ...Or that the whole nation was sealed in hardness for many generations leading up to Christ, which sealing was then lifted after the gentiles started coming to Christ, so as to make Israel jealous to repentance?

If the first, I'm wondering where in scripture you see that specifically.

If the second, it sounds like God at least reprobated those certain Israelites in their hardness of heart for some greater purpose.

If neither, please explain.

 

[Skandelon]

Are you saying that god sealed Israel in that hardened condition for only the short time durring the one generation that crucified Christ?

Well, to answer that you need to understand there are two types of hardening.

"Self hardening," where one rebells freely and simply becomes calloused to the things of God. And second, "judicial hardening," by which God seals someone in their already hardened condition by temporarily blinding them from the truth so as to accomplish a redemptive purpose through them. (i.e. Pharaoh; and Israel)

I do believe that once the redemptive purpose was fulfilled the "judicial" aspect may have been removed, but there is not a lot of detail on this in scripture. In Romans 11 it does seem to indicate that Paul anticipated that his own ministry might provoke some of the hardened Jews to envy and lead them to salvation, so at least we know what Paul thought about it. But even if someone is not being blinded from the truth, they may remain in rebellion by choice (self hardening), but Paul's hope is that their will might be provoked and cause them to change their minds.

...Or that the whole nation was sealed in hardness for many generations leading up to Christ, which sealing was then lifted after the gentiles started coming to Christ, so as to make Israel jealous to repentance?

I don't see any reason God would have needed to seal an already rebellious people into the hardened condition prior to Christ's coming. It seems to me this is unique to while Christ was on earth. Just as when Moses (foreshadowing Christ) went to Pharaoh, it was necessary for his heart to be hardened so as to make God's power known through all the plagues. Through his being hardened the first passover was brought to pass, and through the Israel's hardening the real Passover was brought to pass.

There was no need to continue hardening Pharaoh after the people were redeemed, so I don't see any reason God would keep Israel hardened once the gentiles were established in the church.

If the first, I'm wondering where in scripture you see that specifically.

As explained, in Romans 11.

If the second, it sounds like God at least reprobated those certain Israelites in their hardness of heart for some greater purpose.

I don't deny that, but keep in mind judicial hardening is a result of self hardening so those hardened have already been fitted for destruction. They deserve condemnation. The key is that they weren't born hardened, as the doctrine of Total Inability virtually teaches.

 

[Iconoclast]

???????

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

Wrong. Paul is not only listing the things God has done for those who love Him. This is a reading of the text that leaves out the other (and more important) aspect: Those who are called.

Actually, Paul is adeptly bringing up both the action of God and the response of man. Paul is bringing up calling, and it is an effectual calling (a "call" that produces something, in this case salvation). The effectual call is seen in the following verse where it is God who calls and justifies (among other things).

Paul is, however, saying that the result of God's calling (those called according to His purpose) are those that love Him.

So, we do have man's response--loving God. But that response is just that, a response. Man loving God does not bring God's call. Rather, God's call (an obvious effectual call) brings about man loving Him.

It is unfortunate that someone of your stature should leave out a clause so important.



By leaving out the aforementioned clause of Romans 8:28, it is easy to see how that omission has led you down an errant path. You are making assumptions of the text based on what you leave out rather than what is actually there.

The Archangel

Right on target....no need to rush past this....it should be focused on.
God's work,God's way is always first:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand and appreciate the effort to provide a "middle ground" compromise which acknowledges and accepts both premises of this debate, however I must disagree.

The bible does NOT teach that God predestines certain people to be saved. That is something you just assume based upon a gross misinterpretation of Ephesians 1. What Paul says is that God has predestined to adopt believers as sons.




It does NOT say God has predestined some to become believers. It only tells us what God has PRE-determined will happen to his Bride, the church. It says nothing of his predetermining what individuals will or will not be in his church.

skan;

The bible does NOT teach that God predestines certain people to be saved

sure it does

Where do you guys make all this up? First he describes the time of the individual election....then teaches that as part of it we are adopted as sons.
You and winman go out of your way to pervert the texts..to mean odd and strange ideas that no one else holds to...it is like you are obsessed with being contrarians
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[preacher4truth]

The bible does NOT teach that God predestines certain people to be saved. That is something you just assume based upon a gross misinterpretation of Ephesians 1.

More error in your theology here coming to the forefront. You, having allegedly been a Calvinist in your past, and on the right theological path then, know this which you are teaching is error. Scriptures clearly teach the opposite of what you are teaching here. It's not only taught in Ephesians 1, it's a dogma throughout God's Word.

 

[Rippon]

God shows mercy to all men (Romans 11:32)

The Lord mercies some and He hardens the rest. All people do not receive mercy. Some receive His justice.

 

[Aaron]

The foresight of faith view is what many see as the Arminian explanation of biblical predestination. They teach that God looks down the corridors of time to see who will have faith and then predestines them to have faith.

Honestly, if I believed that is what Arminians really believed I'd reject it to. It is NOT just about God's foresight of man's faith, and this statement oversimplifies our views to make them seem absurd.

We affirm that God has predestined us (believers) to be conformed to the image of Christ and adopted as his sons, just as scripture teaches. We just don't presume that to mean God also has predestined who would and would not believe in Christ, as do Calvinists. So, we don't believe Paul is attempting to say God is looking through time to see who will believe and then predestining them to believe. Instead, Paul is simply showing what God has predetermined to accomplish in the lives of all who come to faith.

Here is an analogy I used back in the day which should provide some clarity:

Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian.

Coach Calvin is in a league where he hand picks his players.

Coach Arminian is in a league where individuals volunteer to join the team.

Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players.

Calvinists insist Roman 8 and Eph. 1 (where predestination is mentioned) must mean that God is like "Coach Calvin" but all the passage tells us is what the coach has predetermined for his team, it says nothing about his predetermining who would and would not be on that team.

Calvinists make arguments such as this: "whom he did predestinate, them [the same ones] he also called: and whom he called, them [the same ones] he also justified: and whom he justified, them [the same ones] he also glorified."

The problem with this is that Paul is only listing the things God has done for those who love him. He is not even bringing up men's response. Even Calvinists insist that a man must respond in faith in order to be justified, but this verse doesn't even mention faith. Should we conclude from this that faith is not necessary? Of course not, no one does. Should we conclude from this that faith must be irresistably applied to those foreknown, predestined and called? Only if you want to infer something from silence. Simply because Paul assumes the faith response doesn't necessarily mean that such a response is not free, or is somehow irresistably applied to certain individuals to the neglect of others. You have to read that into the text. All we can certainly conclude from this passage is that God has predetermined for US, his church, to be conformed to the image of his son and the we, his church, were called, justified, sanctified and glorified.

If we want to learn more about the response of faith we need to look at other passages, not this one.

And so God elects people based on a quality and not according to His will. You can only "reconcile" predestination with noncalvinism by making God small, by suggesting that there are things outside His control. So your analogies make God a recruiter or a football coach, never a creator. God's success is completely dependent upon something that the recruit must do, and upon a quality which he possesses.

Paul's analogy nails it. God is a potter. From the same lump of clay He makes vessels fit for destruction, and those into whom He sheds His grace. No difference in the clay, simply in the will of the Potter.

 

[Skandelon]

And so God elects people based on a quality and not according to His will.

I have an honest question for you Aaron. Will you ever get tired of typing blatant misrepresentations of what we believe?

That is not even close to what I've just described, and I'm pretty sure you know it. I guess I'll just start saying things like "you don't believe in evangelism" and "you believe God hates most of all mankind before he even creates them" and "you believe heaven looks like the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory," I mean if we're going to make up stuff about each other we might as well make it interesting.

Paul's analogy nails it. God is a potter. From the same lump of clay He makes vessels fit for destruction

Actually it's "common use" or "ignoble purposes" not "destruction" as you misquoted. But I guess if you can change what I say you feel its ok the change what Paul says too, right?

Enjoy the debate with the figment of your imagination.

 

[Skandelon]

The Lord mercies some and He hardens the rest. All people do not receive mercy. Some receive His justice.

You are confusing two issues. The verse I referred to says that God bound all men over to disobedience so as to show mercy to them all. Hardening Israel was actually an act of mercy, according to Paul in Romans 11. Read the whole chapter again and he explains that by hardening Israel in their unbelief he allowed room for the Gentiles to come into the church...this is an example of hardening Israel for the sake of the Gentiles. But in doing so it will provoke Israel to envy thus possibly bringing some to salvation, which is an example of God using the hardening to show them mercy.

It is like when the scripture speaks of casting out the unrepentant brethren so as to save his soul. How is casting someone out going to possibly save their soul? The same why hardening them (or cutting them from the tree) does. It allows them to come to the end of their sin (their pig sty) so they may come to their senses "humble themselves" and turn.

Our God is so merciful that he is showing mercy even in his hardening.

 

[humblethinker]

skan;


sure it does

Where do you guys make all this up? First he describes the time of the individual election....then teaches that as part of it we are adopted as sons.
You and winman go out of your way to pervert the texts..to mean odd and strange ideas that no one else holds to...it is like you are obsessed with being contrarians
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Hmmm... Those verses do not seem to be a good example for the idea that God predestines certain people to be saved and I don't think you'll get disagreement from Arms that we are adopted as sons.

For such a strong accusation against Skan and Winman I would think you'd provide some red meet.

 

[Skandelon]

Hmmm... Those verses do not seem to be a good example for the idea that God predestines certain people to be saved and I don't think you'll get disagreement from Arms that we are adopted as sons.

For such a strong accusation against Skan and Winman I would think you'd provide some red meet.

True, especially when one considers all the verses which clearly teach that the Spirit comes through faith, not the other way around.

 

[12strings]

Originally Posted by Skandelon:

God shows mercy to all men (Romans 11:32)

Rippon's reply:

The Lord mercies some and He hardens the rest. All people do not receive mercy. Some receive His justice.

Rippon, the Verse actually says God shows mercy to all men. You can debate how that mercy is expressed, and if it is necessarily saving, but to say God shows no mercy to all men is clearly unbiblical. God give rain and sun to the just and the unjust alike.

If you are going to say that you believe the exact opposite of what a Bible verse says, at least try to qualify it a bit.

 

[DHK]

"The bible does NOT teach that God predestines certain people to be saved"

sure it does

Where do you guys make all this up? First he describes the time of the individual election....then teaches that as part of it we are adopted as sons.
You and winman go out of your way to pervert the texts..to mean odd and strange ideas that no one else holds to...it is like you are obsessed with being contrarians
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The above verses are written to those individuals who have already, by faith, become part of the bride of Christ. Paul is listing some of the privileges that each believer, each one who is in Christ, already has. Such information is never addressed to the unsaved. It is only given to the saved. We are chosen to serve him (John 15:16).

The verse that you highlighted is written to a plural number of people. "YE" have received the spirit of adoption." That is, all who are in the nation that God is calling out for himself, have received this Spirit of adoption. The subject is plural, not singular.

We are a royal priesthood, a peculiar people, a holy nation.
He has called (elected) us out to show forth his praises--to call people out of darkness into his marvelous light. Election is directed to this wonderful corporate body--a holy nation called out by God.

 

[Iconoclast]

The above verses are written to those individuals who have already, by faith, become part of the bride of Christ. Paul is listing some of the privileges that each believer, each one who is in Christ, already has. Such information is never addressed to the unsaved. It is only given to the saved. We are chosen to serve him (John 15:16).


No one disputes this....not seeing how you offer this


The verse that you highlighted is written to a plural number of people. "YE" have received the spirit of adoption." That is, all who are in the nation that God is calling out for himself, have received this Spirit of adoption. The subject is plural, not singular.

Again the reason it is plural is that although made up of individuals,God places us in a household/family of faith.....yes they do serve..
That God molds us into a body...or holy nation is important...but it does not change the teaching of individual election whatsoever.



We are a royal priesthood, a peculiar people, a holy nation.
He has called (elected) us out to show forth his praises--to call people out of darkness into his marvelous light. Election is directed to this wonderful corporate body--a holy nation called out by God.

Election is individual......forming us into a corporate body is the Spirits work in sanctification


The plural only indicates that it is true for each individual...who are placed by God in a local body...you have the same YE in 1cor3.....