Is the "foresight of faith" view to only viable "Arminian" explanation?

[quantumfaith]

Yes, this would be the "general call." This is the call that refers to the proclamation of the message.
Q. Who are those chosen?
A. The ones who respond to the call.

Q. Why do they respond to the call?
A. Because they were effectually called by God (as other passages indicate below).

All these verbs are transitive active verbs with God as the subject and people as the direct object. The same group of people are the recipients of all these actions. None is a subset of the other.

The foreknow is NOT pertaining to knowing "facts" about people. The people are the object. The people are foreknown. It does not say "about whom he did foreknow." It is they who are foreknown.

Example: In Matthew 1:25, Joseph did not know (ginwskw) his wife until she conceived. It is in the context of an intimate relationship. When God foreknows people, it means that he "fore-relationships" them. There is NO way to get the idea of God foreknowing their faith from the grammar of the golden chain of redemption in Romans 8.

1 Corinthians 1:
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

What is the nature of this "calling"? Obviously not every single Jew or Greek is "called" here, because the ones who are "called" are contrasted with the remainder of the whole.

1 Corinthians 1:
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Hmm. It doesn't seem here that God is "trying" to save every individual. Rather, He intends to confound the Jew and Greek in general (those who think they are wise, mighty, and noble). On the contrary, the ones who are "called" out of these groups, Christ is power and wisdom. Sounds pretty effectual to me, and distinguishable from the "general call."

So, what is the differentiating factor?

1 Corinthians 1:
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

We are in Christ Jesus because of the effectual call of God. The only reason that we have the wisdom of the gospel is because of God are we in Christ Jesus.

:applause:

Where is (are) the scripture(s) which make the distinction for me between "general" and "effectual" call?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

What is wrong with you?

For one to believe that God would give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate is astounding. How can you believe in such an unbiblical concept??

Where did I post this? Are you able to read a post correctly without talebearing? Comment on what I said...not on what is in your head..

How can an unbeliever have a Spiritual gift...without the Spirit?

Here is what I posted;

So ...no.... unregenerate men cannot have spiritual gifts...WITHOUT THE SPIRIT!!!!But when God regenerates the unsaved man....He is indwelt by the Spirit...and if he is willing to study the word...in time he will understand the grace of God.

That is how it makes sense.Anything else ....does not

 

[DHK]

DHK,

What is wrong with you?

Where did I post this? Are you able to read a post correctly without talebearing? Comment on what I said...not on what is in your head..

How can an unbeliever have a Spiritual gift...without the Spirit?

Here is what I posted;

Nothing is wrong with me Icono.
I'll repeat your post again so that we can examine it:

So ...no.... unregenerate men cannot have spiritual gifts...WITHOUT THE SPIRIT!!!!But when God regenerates the unsaved man....He is indwelt by the Spirit...and if he is willing to study the word...in time he will understand the grace of God.

That is how it makes sense.Anything else ....does not

First: Calvinistic teaching says that a person must be regenerated before he is actually saved. True or false?

Therefore my statement stands, Faith (and now the Spirit) is given to an unsaved man. He is regenerated but not saved. And yet somehow is indwelt by the spirit and given this special gift of faith. My Bible doesn't teach that.

You have stated: When God regenerates the UNSAVED man...He is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
But he isn't saved yet is he? In my books that is heresy.

God does not give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unsaved individuals. That is my statement. Demonstrate from Scripture that he does.
I also believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time--the time that a person is justified by faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing is wrong with me Icono.
I'll repeat your post again so that we can examine it:

First: Calvinistic teaching says that a person must be regenerated before he is actually saved. True or false?

Therefore my statement stands, Faith (and now the Spirit) is given to an unsaved man. He is regenerated but not saved. And yet somehow is indwelt by the spirit and given this special gift of faith. My Bible doesn't teach that.

You have stated: When God regenerates the UNSAVED man...He is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
But he isn't saved yet is he? In my books that is heresy.

God does not give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unsaved individuals. That is my statement. Demonstrate from Scripture that he does.
I also believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time--the time that a person is justified by faith.

DHK,
How many times do we have to explain the same thing to you?

First: Calvinistic teaching says that a person must be regenerated before he is actually saved. True or false?

False again.....A person is saved and regenerated at the same time.God does not bring to life a dead sinner for no purpose. They pass from spiritual death unto life and are enabled to believe.

A person might be "drawn" by the Spirit for awhile, it could be days or weeks,months....but there is a point in time known unto God alone where the person is translated from death to life.
As they are being drawn....the field is being plowed by the law of God...working on their conscience.....at regeneration the receive the implanted word which is able to save their soul. The Spirit indwells them.They are then enabled to come to truth. God grants them repentance and saving faith.
it is not like we stand there with a stopwatch and have a fixed timeline like on wide world of sports with observers and commentators;

Oh look....God has indwelt Him with the Spirit 1;07
he is alive now 1;07
God granted Him repentance and faith 1:08
his heart is open 1;09
he is hearing the word now 1:09.2
He just exercised saving faith 1;10
he just picked up the 1689 conf. and calvins institutes 1;11

oh no...he is believing the doctrines of grace now 1:12
wait there is hope..robert snow just posted calvinism is bad! 1:13
Quantum gave 4 thumbs up to robert snow:thumbs::thumbs: 1:14
oh no he is wavering now...questioning his salvation 1;14
he is dealing with indwelling sin 1:15
DHk and revmac assured him he is ok,just he is a carnal christian 1:16
he might lose some cookies as rewards...but once saved /always saved 1:17


If you read or listened to gifted ministers of the NT ....in books commentaries, sermonaudio...you would know this.

Sometimes I get the sense about you that you look to trip up someone young in the faith...who has not studied enough to know better.....bait them into saying something incorrect.....so then you can say----see calvinists are wrong!

That might be the reason you avoid those who can articulate well...like Archangel...you resist the teaching...then he toasts your error like a marshmellow...then you find a reason to avoid further interaction with Him.

He is much more graceful than I am, but instead of accepting correction...you seem threatened by him and others who come right at you.

I hope this is not the case DHK. I hope there is some misunderstanding or miscommunication....that is causing me to get this as you call it"sense" about You

Therefore my statement stands, Faith (and now the Spirit) is given to an unsaved man. He is regenerated but not saved

No your statement was error when you first posted it..it is error now...and will be error the next time you post it...thats what we are telling you DHK!

And yet somehow is indwelt by the spirit and given this special gift of faith. My Bible doesn't teach that.

If your bible does not teach truth..than throw it out!

this is one of my pet peeves with fundy types!

well my bible says..........as if everyone elses says something else.
or i am standing on the word!
or they refer to themselves in the 3rd person..."preacher you tell me"

I notice you did not comment on the part of my post where you mis-quote me ...i reposted it for you.....and you somehow cannot say...Sorry I mis-read your post and was confused:thumbs:

DHK....there is no easy way to say it....you are teaching error.....but when you come after us and try to denigrate what we hold.....we will not be silent about it.....but rather will call you on the error.
we do not call for you to censored ...or to stop posting...so why do you hound Luke24.or P4t or anyone else trying to silence them....they are not oneness pentecostals..or any other cult group.
if you are enabled to get a clearer view of truth you will call them friends:thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

DHK,
How many times do we have to explain the same thing to you?


False again.....A person is saved and regenerated at the same time.God does not bring to life a dead sinner for no purpose. They pass from spiritual death unto life and are enabled to believe.

A person might be "drawn" by the Spirit for awhile, it could be days or weeks,months....but there is a point in time known unto God alone where the person is translated from death to life.
As they are being drawn....the field is being plowed by the law of God...working on their conscience.....at regeneration the receive the implanted word which is able to save their soul. The Spirit indwells them.They are then enabled to come to truth. God grants them repentance and saving faith.
it is not like we stand there with a stopwatch and have a fixed timeline like on wide world of sports with observers and commentators;

Oh look....God has indwelt Him with the Spirit 1;07
he is alive now 1;07
God granted Him repentance and faith 1:08
his heart is open 1;09
he is hearing the word now 1:09.2
He just exercised saving faith 1;10
he just picked up the 1689 conf. and calvins institutes 1;11

oh no...he is believing the doctrines of grace now 1:12
wait there is hope..robert snow just posted calvinism is bad! 1:13
Quantum gave 4 thumbs up to robert snow:thumbs::thumbs: 1:14
oh no he is wavering now...questioning his salvation 1;14
he is dealing with indwelling sin 1:15
DHk and revmac assured him he is ok,just he is a carnal christian 1:16
he might lose some cookies as rewards...but once saved /always saved 1:17


If you read or listened to gifted ministers of the NT ....in books commentaries, sermonaudio...you would know this.

Sometimes I get the sense about you that you look to trip up someone young in the faith...who has not studied enough to know better.....bait them into saying something incorrect.....so then you can say----see calvinists are wrong!

That might be the reason you avoid those who can articulate well...like Archangel...you resist the teaching...then he toasts your error like a marshmellow...then you find a reason to avoid further interaction with Him.

He is much more graceful than I am, but instead of accepting correction...you seem threatened by him and others who come right at you.

I hope this is not the case DHK. I hope there is some misunderstanding or miscommunication....that is causing me to get this as you call it"sense" about You

No your statement was error when you first posted it..it is error now...and will be error the next time you post it...thats what we are telling you DHK!



If your bible does not teach truth..than throw it out!

this is one of my pet peeves with fundy types!

well my bible says..........as if everyone elses says something else.
or i am standing on the word!
or they refer to themselves in the 3rd person..."preacher you tell me"

I notice you did not comment on the part of my post where you mis-quote me ...i reposted it for you.....and you somehow cannot say...Sorry I mis-read your post and was confused

DHK....there is no easy way to say it....you are teaching error.....but when you come after us and try to denigrate what we hold.....we will not be silent about it.....but rather will call you on the error.
we do not call for you to censored ...or to stop posting...so why do you hound Luke24.or P4t or anyone else trying to silence them....they are not oneness pentecostals..or any other cult group.
if you are enabled to get a clearer view of truth you will call them friends:thumbs:

Amen Iconoclast.

This threatening nonsense if I don't provide a verse, or since my argument disproves his error is utterly ridiculous nonsense.

You, Arch, myself, others have proven this DHK wrong on many many occasions. In doing so come threats to censor, other threats to me personally, in public, and in PM. This is ridiculous behavior.

To warn me that mods have been summoned for not supplying a passage (for which I have) is to me bullying. If I were an arminian or non-cal, my leash would be longer. Heavens sakes Iconoclast, I could even tell you you are in darkness, and never even get snipped! (if I were of the same flavor as them theologically, i.e. non-cal, and rushed in with pom-poms with thumbs all over the place!!!!) :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen Iconoclast.

This threatening nonsense if I don't provide a verse, or since my argument disproves his error is utterly ridiculous nonsense.

You, Arch, myself, others have proven this DHK wrong on many many occasions. In doing so come threats to censor, other threats to me personally, in public, and in PM. This is ridiculous behavior.

To warn me that mods have been summoned for not supplying a passage (for which I have) is to me bullying. If I were an arminian or non-cal, my leash would be longer. Heavens sakes Iconoclast, I could even tell you you are in darkness, and never even get snipped! (if I were of the same flavor as them theologically, i.e. non-cal, and rushed in with pom-poms with thumbs all over the place!!!!) :laugh:

Well P4T,
Hopefully better days are coming.....maybe this was done out of frustrating thoughts or questions being raised about long held and cherished beliefs.
I heard an OLD evangelist speak about how this happens....here in a message entitled Do You Know God.....it is an old cassette recording...he is old and slow but makes some good points.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=911049452..enjoy..I listened to this several times..lol....an oldie but a goodie...he has that southern downhome kind of sound...but he is very well biblically educated.

 

[quantumfaith]

Amen Iconoclast.

This threatening nonsense if I don't provide a verse, or since my argument disproves his error is utterly ridiculous nonsense.

You, Arch, myself, others have proven this DHK wrong on many many occasions. In doing so come threats to censor, other threats to me personally, in public, and in PM. This is ridiculous behavior.

To warn me that mods have been summoned for not supplying a passage (for which I have) is to me bullying. If I were an arminian or non-cal, my leash would be longer. Heavens sakes Iconoclast, I could even tell you you are in darkness, and never even get snipped! (if I were of the same flavor as them theologically, i.e. non-cal, and rushed in with pom-poms with thumbs all over the place!!!!) :laugh:

game on Pft

 

[DHK]

DHK,
How many times do we have to explain the same thing to you?

False again.....A person is saved and regenerated at the same time.God does not bring to life a dead sinner for no purpose. They pass from spiritual death unto life and are enabled to believe.

This is not what most Calvinists believe. Here is what they believe:

There is much Scripture showing faith to the unregenerate is God's gift. I'd suggest he do a study himself as self-discovery would be the best teacher for him.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1735147&postcount=159

All "Calvinist" brethren know they have received faith, know they have faith, and know from Whom they've received it.

To state otherwise and mock saids belief and saids faith, and, to state they do not know whether or not they have faith &c is to completely misrepresent them, and is subsequently calling into question their salvation altogether.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1734990&postcount=119

Your insistence that Abraham had to have faith before leaving Ur is based in your presupposition that God only uses those who first have faith. In fact, almost the entire book of Genesis shows that God chooses faithless people and instills faith into them.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1734745&postcount=70

1. Does God need to regenerate people first, thus enabling them to believe, or not?

No one believes that is not regenerate.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1732495&postcount=34

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1732495&postcount=34


This is what most Calvinists believe. These are direct quotes from P4t, jbh, etc.
Notice the following fallacies.
1. Faith is a spiritual gift that must precede regeneration.
2. Regeneration must precede salvation. (or believing or even the ability to believe).
3. Notice that Archangel's post about Abraham is an insistence that Abraham was not declared righteous until Genesis 15, even though he was called out of Ur at the end of chapter 11, and the Lord spoke to him and guided him throughout chapter 12. Was he regenerated but not saved?

A person might be "drawn" by the Spirit for awhile, it could be days or weeks,months....but there is a point in time known unto God alone where the person is translated from death to life.

Generally we believe the same thing. I would rather use the word "convicted" as per John 16, the purpose for which the Lord sent the Holy Spirit.

As they are being drawn....the field is being plowed by the law of God...working on their conscience.....at regeneration the receive the implanted word which is able to save their soul. The Spirit indwells them.They are then enabled to come to truth. God grants them repentance and saving faith.

God doesn't give them faith, and I doubt if he even gives repentance. That would make the commands to Believe and Repent null and void. There is no Scripture anywhere that indicates God gives man faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That is Scriptural.

it is not like we stand there with a stopwatch and have a fixed timeline like on wide world of sports with observers and commentators;

But we do have Scripture to rely on. Rom.10:17 is fairly reliable.

Oh look....God has indwelt Him with the Spirit 1;07
he is alive now 1;07
God granted Him repentance and faith 1:08
his heart is open 1;09
he is hearing the word now 1:09.2
He just exercised saving faith 1;10
he just picked up the 1689 conf. and calvins institutes 1;11

oh no...he is believing the doctrines of grace now 1:12
wait there is hope..robert snow just posted calvinism is bad! 1:13
Quantum gave 4 thumbs up to robert snow:thumbs::thumbs: 1:14
oh no he is wavering now...questioning his salvation 1;14
he is dealing with indwelling sin 1:15
DHk and revmac assured him he is ok,just he is a carnal christian 1:16
he might lose some cookies as rewards...but once saved /always saved 1:17

1. He must believe in order to be saved. God doesn't give him a special gift of faith. It was there all the time. Jesus testifies to this, as he says that one must have faith as a child. I would rather believe Jesus than Calvin.
2. Just as one must have faith he must repent. This also is an innate ability. God is not going to do it for you.
3. In order to have what one would call "saving faith," he must hear the word of God, the gospel. For "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One cannot be saved without the message of the gospel.
4. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Once he believes that message then the Lord opens his heart and the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within.
--Those are the things that are important.

If you read or listened to gifted ministers of the NT ....in books commentaries, sermonaudio...you would know this.

I have read and listened to gifted teachers and preachers of the NT, and thus am able to spot errors in your theology.

Sometimes I get the sense about you that you look to trip up someone young in the faith...who has not studied enough to know better.....bait them into saying something incorrect.....so then you can say----see calvinists are wrong!

No one has a perfect theology Icon, not you, not anyone.

That might be the reason you avoid those who can articulate well...like Archangel...you resist the teaching...then he toasts your error like a marshmellow...then you find a reason to avoid further interaction with Him.

Do you believe that Abraham was not saved until Genesis 15. I left off talking with Archangel because his arguments were not making sense. He wouldn't even listen to the arguments given from Hebrews 11, and other Calvinistic scholars that backed up my position.

He is much more graceful than I am, but instead of accepting correction...you seem threatened by him and others who come right at you.

I am not threatened by him at all. Sometimes it is simply how far one can go in a debate before two people have to stop and agree to disagree.

No your statement was error when you first posted it..it is error now...and will be error the next time you post it...thats what we are telling you DHK!

You say I am error. What do you have to back up your claim.

If your bible does not teach truth..than throw it out!

Why would I throw out my Bible? It is the Word of God!

this is one of my pet peeves with fundy types!

well my bible says..........as if everyone elses says something else.
or i am standing on the word!
or they refer to themselves in the 3rd person..."preacher you tell me"

I notice you did not comment on the part of my post where you mis-quote me ...i reposted it for you.....and you somehow cannot say...Sorry I mis-read your post and was confused

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to because you don't have anything in exact quotes. I don't see where I mis-quoted you. I try to quote people word for word. It was your misunderstanding not mine. Please don't try to put it on me. I can show you post after post where the majority of Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes salvation, and therefore one must have a gift of faith in order to be saved. You say that regeneration and faith occur at the same time. You are an exception to the average Calvinist. That is where the confusion arose.

DHK....there is no easy way to say it....you are teaching error.....but when you come after us and try to denigrate what we hold.....we will not be silent about it.....but rather will call you on the error.

I can say the same thing about Calvinists, and if you haven't noticed many others say the same thing. So you don't have to single me out.

we do not call for you to censored ...or to stop posting...so why do you hound Luke24.or P4t or anyone else trying to silence them....they are not oneness pentecostals..or any other cult group.

I don't. Statements should be substantiated. Evidence should be given. If P4t makes the statement that faith is a gift of God given to the unregenerate, then he should be able to back up his statement, then he should be man enough or more politely courteous enough to back up his statement when challenged to do so. I shouldn't have to beat around the bush for 8 or so pages hounding him to do so. If he can't back it up, then say so, admit it. But to go on and on, waste space and derail the thread is not fair to others. In fact it is against the rules.

if you are enabled to get a clearer view of truth you will call them friends:thumbs:

Will they act like it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)

www.reformed.org/documents

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. III. ..... by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to ... :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

Well P4T,
Hopefully better days are coming.....maybe this was done out of frustrating thoughts or questions being raised about long held and cherished beliefs.
I heard an OLD evangelist speak about how this happens....here in a message entitled Do You Know God.....it is an old cassette recording...he is old and slow but makes some good points.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=911049452..enjoy..I listened to this several times..lol....an oldie but a goodie...he has that southern downhome kind of sound...but he is very well biblically educated.

Sorry, I could not get your link to work.

I, unlike some, and not intimidated to listen to others who agree, or disagree with me.

Thanks.

 

[DHK]

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)

www.reformed.org/documents

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. III. ..... by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to ... :thumbs:

Good resource.

Chapter XIV. Of Saving Faith
Section I.–The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word: by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.

7. That in this calling the sinner is altogether passive, until he is quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit. Here it is proper to distinguish between regeneration and conversion; in the former the sinner is passive - in the latter he is active, or co-operates with the grace of God. In regeneration a principle of grave is implanted in the soul, and previous to this the sinner is incapable of moral activity; for, in the language of inspiration, he is "dead in trespasses and sins." In conversion the soul turns to God, which imports activity; but still the sinner only acts as he is acted upon by God, who "worketh in him both to will and to do."

Section II.—This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/

http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/

It appears that in the confession regeneration must be before salvation.
As I mentioned before this is the standard Calvinistic belief.

 

[Winman]

Good resource.

It appears that in the confession regeneration must be before salvation.
As I mentioned before this is the standard Calvinistic belief.

It's nonsensical, it says you must be made alive so that you are able to believe so that you can have life.

Jn 20:31 says that believeing we might have life, Calvinism says you must have life so you can believe that you might have life. Nonsense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And so God elects people based on a quality and not according to His will. You can only "reconcile" predestination with noncalvinism by making God small, by suggesting that there are things outside His control. So your analogies make God a recruiter or a football coach, never a creator. God's success is completely dependent upon something that the recruit must do, and upon a quality which he possesses.

Paul's analogy nails it. God is a potter. From the same lump of clay He makes vessels fit for destruction, and those into whom He sheds His grace. No difference in the clay, simply in the will of the Potter.

RIGHT & AMEN :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

And so God elects people based on a quality and not according to His will. You can only "reconcile" predestination with noncalvinism by making God small, by suggesting that there are things outside His control. So your analogies make God a recruiter or a football coach, never a creator. God's success is completely dependent upon something that the recruit must do, and upon a quality which he possesses.

Paul's analogy nails it. God is a potter. From the same lump of clay He makes vessels fit for destruction, and those into whom He sheds His grace. No difference in the clay, simply in the will of the Potter.

You totally misinterpret Paul, he was referencing the potter in Jeremiah 18. Here God says if a nation or kingdom he has pronounced evil upon turn from it's evil, God will repent of the evil he intended toward them, or if there is a nation or kingdom he is going to plant and build turn from him and do evil, God will repent of the good wherewith he would benefit them.

This passage in Jeremiah is not speaking of unconditional election whatsoever.

So Calvinism reverses the true intent of Paul, Paul is saying because the Jews have rejected Christ, God has gone to the Gentiles who believe.

Calvinism boasts of it's scholarship, yet not one Calvinist here seems to know Paul was referencing Jeremiah 18.