Is the "foresight of faith" view to only viable "Arminian" explanation?

[DHK]

You are of course correct here;


This word is also translated as GRACED:thumbs::thumbs:

to you it was graced....:thumbs:

See explanation given here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1735291&postcount=180

 

[Iconoclast]

See explanation given here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1735291&postcount=180

Yes...this quote supports what i have posted;

Verse 29. For unto you. Unto you as Christians. This favour is granted unto you in your present
circumstances.

It is given. God concedes to you this privilege or advantage.

In the behalf of Christ. In the cause of Christ, or with a view to honour Christ. Or, these things are brought on you in consequence of your being Christians.

Not only to believe on him. It is represented here as a privilege to be permitted to believe on Christ. It is so.

to be permitted is to be Divinely enabled!

 

[DHK]

Yes...this quote supports what i have posted;


to be permitted is to be Divinely enabled!

Not in my vocabulary.

 

[quantumfaith]

Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near

Psalms 105:4
Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

1 Chronicles 16:11
Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Luke 12:31
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you

Psalms 105:4
Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Chronicles 22:19
Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Psalms 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Psalms 69:32
The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

Job 8:5-6
If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous

Psalms 34:4
I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears


2 Chronicles 12:14
And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD

 

[Iconoclast]

Not in my vocabulary.

Ok....well lets expand your vocabulary with these brethrens help;

FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE: hoti humin echaristhe (3SAPI) to huper Christou: (Acts 5:41; Ro 5:3; Jas 1:2; 1Pe 4:13)
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ " (Lightfoot 1)

for it is his grace, his privilege bestowed upon you, that for Christ (Lightfoot 2)

For to you has been given the privilege of doing something for Christ (Barclay)

You are given, in this battle, the privilege (Phillips)

And the reason why you should not be terrified is because to you that very thing was given graciously as a favor for the sake of Christ and in His behalf, not only to be believing on Him but also to be suffering for His sake and in His behalf" (Wuest)

For (hoti) explains the reason the saints at Philippi did not need to be terrified by their opponents. Why? Because the opposition had been bequeathed to them from God as a gift of grace as explained below!

Vincent writes that (hoti) for...

justifies the preceding statement, but with special reference to soteria [word study]. The evidence that your courage is a divine token of salvation lies in the fact that God has graciously bestowed on you, along with faith in Christ, the privilege of suffering with Him. For faith implies oneness with Christ, and therefore fellowship with His sufferings (Ro 8:17-note; 2Th 1:5; 2Ti 2:12-note; Php 3:10-note). That you suffer with Christ proves your union with Him, and your union with Christ insures your salvation. (Philippians 1:29-30 Commentary Online)

Lange's Commentary...

For unto you it was given confirms the statement in Php 1:28, the last words of which (apo theou = from God) led the Apostle to adopt the passive form here. It is just you who are struggling and suffering together, to whom this grace [or undeserved favor] has been granted (charizomai) by God. Hence "you" (humin) has the emphatic position. (Philippians 1:27-30 Commentary Online)

You (humin) is emphatic by position and corresponds with the humon in Php 1:28.

TWO DIVINE
GIFTS

Granted (5483) (charizomai [word study] from charis [word study] = grace, unmerited favor) signifies a gift of grace and is the same verb Paul used in Php 2:9 (note) to describe the "bestowal" of the Name above every name upon Jesus. Suffering for the sake of Christ is the gift of grace or as both Barclay and Phillips put it "the privilege".
Charizomai is notes especially a grant of free favor or of kindness and thus is often used of free forgiveness (Lk 7:42, 2Co 2:7, 10, Ep 4:32-note, Col 3:13-note), sometimes of the work of free grace and salvation (Ro 8:32-note, 1Co 2:12), of an arbitrary, extra-legal, giving up of a prisoner to others, either for their freedom or penalty (Ac 3:14, 25:11, 16).
H C G Moule says that charizomai in this context speaks of "associations of sovereignty, favor, boon, (and) forms a noble paradox."

Marvin Vincent...

‘it hath been granted’; freely bestowed as a gracious gift. The word is significant as opening the conception of suffering from the Christian point of view. God rewards and indorses believers with the gift of suffering. In Paul’s bonds the Philippians are partakers with him of grace (Php 1:7-note. cp Acts 5.41). The aorist points to the original bestowment of the gift. (See Mt 5:11-note; Mk 10:38, 39.) (Philippians 1:29-30 Commentary Online)

Eadie observes that...

The aorist is used, as the apostle refers indefinitely to an early period of their past Christian history; but that the suffering continued, also, to the moment of his writing, is evident from the following echontes (experiencing - present tense = continuously)...

Faith in Christ is the means of salvation; but suffering is the evident token of salvation. The one secures it, the other foreshows it. The martyr is not saved, indeed, because he suffers; but his undaunted suffering betokens a present Saviour and a near salvation.

Note the two gifts: (1) The gift of faith which enables us to believe in Christ in the first place. Without this gift from the Lord, we would never be saved in the first place. (2) Then there is the gift of suffering—but it is the gift no one wants

 

[Iconoclast]

Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near

Psalms 105:4
Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

1 Chronicles 16:11
Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Luke 12:31
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you

Psalms 105:4
Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Chronicles 22:19
Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Psalms 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Psalms 69:32
The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

Job 8:5-6
If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous

Psalms 34:4
I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears


2 Chronicles 12:14
And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD

QF....
That is a good list of verses...but they do not address the original post.
Of course all men are responsible to seek God.

 

[DHK]

Ok....well lets expand your vocabulary with these brethrens help;

Salvation was given to those believers through faith, as a privilege, by grace, inasmuch as the privilege to suffer for his sake was given to the same believers.
Suffering for Jesus is not given to unbelievers; neither is faith.
Don't make the verse say what it doesn't say.

 

[DHK]

QF....
That is a good list of verses...but they do not address the original post.
Of course all men are responsible to seek God.

Glad to see that you finally accept the non-cal position.
All men are responsible to seek God (and to repent).
Thus the command: "all men everywhere to repent."
It is the responsibility of all men to seek God. They seek God without any gift of faith being given to them. That is what the verses that QF posted demonstrates. That is what those commands indicate. God doesn't give commands that man cannot obey.

 

[Iconoclast]

Glad to see that you finally accept the non-cal position.
All men are responsible to seek God (and to repent).
Thus the command: "all men everywhere to repent."
It is the responsibility of all men to seek God. They seek God without any gift of faith being given to them. That is what the verses that QF posted demonstrates. That is what those commands indicate. God doesn't give commands that man cannot obey.

They seek God without any gift of faith being given to them

Without the gift of saving faith...they seek in vain and will never be saved!
2looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down
yet you say;

Suffering for Jesus is not given to unbelievers; neither is faith.
Don't make the verse say what it doesn't say.
__________________

in the words of P4T...wrong again DHK.....but you do have a remarkable consistency

Calvinism deals with both sides of the coin...non cals look at one side primarily

 

[DHK]

Without the gift of saving faith...they seek in vain and will never be saved!

Why would you believe something the Bible doesn't teach?
Show me from Scripture where faith is given to the unregenerate?
Faith in the Bible is: (1) a spiritual gift, (2) a fruit of the Spirit.
Does God give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved?
Does this position even make sense?

in the words of P4T...wrong again DHK.....but you do have a remarkable consistency

Calvinism deals with both sides of the coin...non cals look at one side primarily

I'm not wrong, and you have never demonstrated it. You have two sides to Phil.1:29. You must be consistent. What is applicable to the first half is applicable to the second half and vice versa. You are trying to make the verse say what it doesn't.

Either both salvation and suffering are privileges and gifts of grace to be looked upon with favor by the believer,
or,
They are given to the unbeliever: suffering for Christ, and salvation in Christ. Which is it? It is one or the other. You can't have both.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why would you believe something the Bible doesn't teach?
Show me from Scripture where faith is given to the unregenerate?
Faith in the Bible is: (1) a spiritual gift, (2) a fruit of the Spirit.
Does God give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved?
Does this position even make sense?

I'm not wrong...

Yes. You're wrong DHK.

You're straining and struggling and pretending that the passage teaches God gives this gift to those who are not elect, remain unsaved. Nice try, but a very weak and shallow attempt on your part to cast off the truth here.

I've clearly shown you that your introduction of the audience of the lost into Philippians 1:29 is an eisegetical insertation on your part, and is not the intended audience. Try exegesis for once.

This is impaired hermenuetics in action on your part. You've fallen short, yet again failing to see: author intent, context, setting, and the correct audience which is the elect, not the unsaved.

So Paul via the Spirit shows his intended audience that not only did God grant them ability to believe on Him at salvation, but also this same audience will also suffer for him. No need to add an unintended audience here, unless it supports error and is needed, which in my opinion is a severe error.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why would you believe something the Bible doesn't teach?
Show me from Scripture where faith is given to the unregenerate?
Faith in the Bible is: (1) a spiritual gift, (2) a fruit of the Spirit.
Does God give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved?
Does this position even make sense?

I'm not wrong, and you have never demonstrated it. You have two sides to Phil.1:29. You must be consistent. What is applicable to the first half is applicable to the second half and vice versa. You are trying to make the verse say what it doesn't.

Either both salvation and suffering are privileges and gifts of grace to be looked upon with favor by the believer,
or,
They are given to the unbeliever: suffering for Christ, and salvation in Christ. Which is it? It is one or the other. You can't have both.

DHK,

Show me from Scripture where faith is given to the unregenerate?
Faith in the Bible is: (1) a spiritual gift, (2) a fruit of the Spirit.
Does God give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved?
Does this position even make sense?

DHK...let me try it this way...as you keep offering this arguement.....

1]all men are conceived dead in Adam...unsaved.....all men children of wrath

2] God has purposed to save a multitude of unsaved men......not all

3]Unsaved men cannot be saved.....by themselves....they do not want or seek God by themself.

4] God is the one who gives salvation as a free gift to many

5] a new heart,saving faith, repentance,belief, perserverance , are all a part of salvation
6] there are other kinds of faith..... false faith, natural faith, deceived faith
an unsaved man can have faith in a cow, or ganesh, or allah......but this is the wrong object of faith.....so not saving faith
7 Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.....no definate article....to those he gives it to...ie, the elect
8] so....unsaved men.unregenerate men,,,,when converted by God....are "given" what you say they cannot be given.
9] only those unregenerate men ...given life, a new heart, repentance and faith.....are saved
10] after being saved they are also given a gift of faith...which is again seperate from saving faith....

So ...no unregenerate men cannot have spiritual gifts...WITHOUT THE SPIRIT!!!!
But when God regenerates and unsaved man....He is indwelt by the Spirit...and if he is willing to study the word...in time he will understand the grace of God.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

That is how it makes sense.Anything else ....does not

 

[preacher4truth]

DHK,


DHK...let me try it this way...as you keep offering this arguement.....

1]all men are conceived dead in Adam...unsaved.....all men children of wrath

2] God has purposed to save a multitude of unsaved men......not all

3]Unsaved men cannot be saved.....by themselves....they do not want or seek God by themself.

4] God is the one who gives salvation as a free gift to many

5] a new heart,saving faith, repentance,belief, perserverance , are all a part of salvation
6] there are other kinds of faith..... false faith, natural faith, deceived faith
an unsaved man can have faith in a cow, or ganesh, or allah......but this is the wrong object of faith.....so not saving faith
7 Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.....no definate article....to those he gives it to...ie, the elect
8] so....unsaved men.unregenerate men,,,,when converted by God....are "given" what you say they cannot be given.
9] only those unregenerate men ...given life, a new heart, repentance and faith.....are saved
10] after being saved they are also given a gift of faith...which is again seperate from saving faith....
So ...no unregenerate men cannot have spiritual gifts...WITHOUT THE SPIRIT!!!!
But when God regenerates and unsaved man....He is indwelt by the Spirit...and if he is willing to study the word...in time he will understand the grace of God.

That is how it makes sense.Anything else ....does not

Glory to God for this!!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

"Show me in Scripture where God gives faith to the unregenerate"

- DHK


What double-talk. According to DHK God has already given all men faith when unregenerate. All they have to do is "exercise" it and "voila!!!!"

But when we show him from Scripture God gives this to the elect, to believe at salvation, he flips out, yet says they already have it.

Hmmmm.

Where did it come from?


Scripture is clear. God gives faith as a gift to believe on Him for salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Glory to God for this!!!!! :thumbsup:

I would appreciate it in the future if you no longer use the pejorative metaphor of others being cheerleaders for those who have positions and opinions different from your own, as it almost appears that you do the same.

In the future.

I (speaking for myself) will not call attention to your agreement with someone of like mind and position as yourself if you also will refrain from such claims against others who do likewise when they find themselves in agreement with something counter to how you are convinced.

If not, then we can just both break out the poms poms and megaphones.

 

[quantumfaith]

The feeling from non-cals that we are "free," seeking God (prior to salvation) "good" contrary to Scriptures et al is fallacy.

Jesus said we are not free, but are slaves to sin in our lost state.

The failure is that they look through man's lens and fail to see what God sees through His lens, which is given to us in the Word of God.

Please demonstrate to me anywhere where anyone has made the argument attempting to show that "being free" (in any sense) is in any way equivalent to "being good". That is a genuine straw man.

 

[DHK]

"Show me in Scripture where God gives faith to the unregenerate"

- DHK


What double-talk. According to DHK God has already given all men faith when unregenerate. All they have to do is "exercise" it and "voila!!!!"

But when we show him from Scripture God gives this to the elect, to believe at salvation, he flips out, yet says they already have it.

Hmmmm.

Where did it come from?


Scripture is clear. God gives faith as a gift to believe on Him for salvation.

The only faith that God gives is that faith which is inherent from the beginning. As Jesus said: "Unless you have faith as a child..." Even children have faith. That cannot be denied unless you deny the words of Jesus. Children have faith in their parents, that their parents will provide, protect, guide them. The object of their faith is their parents.

The object of my faith is Christ. He is the one that will save me (spiritually). I trust in his promises (they will never fail). He will never fail. Though man will fail, Jesus will never fail, therefore I trust him completely. He is the author and finisher of my faith. He is the object of my faith.

All men have faith. Some put their faith in Allah, Buddha, money, family, etc. But Christ is the only one that can save. In order to be saved Christ must be the object of one's faith. Faith is inherent in all people.

Thus Jesus constantly said:
Great is THY faith...
I have not seen so great faith in all of Israel.
He marvelled at HIS faith.
THY faith hath made thee well.

It was always "their" faith, not the faith that God gave them.
God commands all men everywhere to repent. How is that possible if they don't have inherent faith. It would be impossible otherwise. They must be able to put THEIR faith in God in order to do so.

The faith to believe in Christ can only come from one place and the Bible tells us where:

Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
The source of what one may call believing faith, comes only from the Word of God, the Gospel--which is the power of God unto salvation. It is not some mystical thing that is injected into the unregenerate by some mysterious hypodermic needle that God has. It comes from hearing the Word of God--the Gospel.

 

[DHK]

DHK,


DHK...let me try it this way...as you keep offering this arguement.....

1]all men are conceived dead in Adam...unsaved.....all men children of wrath

2] God has purposed to save a multitude of unsaved men......not all

3]Unsaved men cannot be saved.....by themselves....they do not want or seek God by themself.

4] God is the one who gives salvation as a free gift to many

You are good up to this point.

5] a new heart,saving faith, repentance,belief, perserverance , are all a part of salvation

He does give us a new heart at salvation. However, God did not give saving faith; we were commanded to believe. God did not give repentance; we were commanded to repent. God did not give "perseverance (in the Calvinistic definition); he gave us eternal security.

6] there are other kinds of faith..... false faith, natural faith, deceived faith.

There is only one kind of faith. Faith is faith. It is confidence, trust. Look it up in a dictionary. It is the object of the faith that is important. The object of one's faith must be Christ. If he is not the object of your faith then you cannot be saved; thus the verse: "the author and finisher of our faith." He is the object of our faith from beginning to end.

an unsaved man can have faith in a cow, or ganesh, or allah......but this is the wrong object of faith.....so not saving faith

Faith is faith--confidence, trust.
If people put their faith in any of the above, then the object of their faith is wrong. They are putting their faith in the wrong object. The object of our faith must be Christ. He is the only one that can save.

7 Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.....no definate article....to those he gives it to...ie, the elect

He is the object of our faith from beginning to end to all that believe.

8] so....unsaved men.unregenerate men,,,,when converted by God....are "given" what you say they cannot be given.

To be regenerated is to be saved. They both happen at the same time.

9] only those unregenerate men ...given life, a new heart, repentance and faith.....are saved

They are given a new life and a new heart. But they had to believe and repent in order to get that far; in order to be regenerated.

10] after being saved they are also given a gift of faith...which is again seperate from saving faith....

For one to believe that God would give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate is astounding. How can you believe in such an unbiblical concept??
After they are saved their faith grows, for their faith increases in relation to the Word of God that they understand, and in relation to Christ, as they begin to know him. Where does faith come from?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.
They will not grow in faith unless they read and study the Word.

So ...no unregenerate men cannot have spiritual gifts...WITHOUT THE SPIRIT!!!!

And that only comes at salvation. Therefore faith of any kind never comes before salvation.

But when God regenerates and unsaved man....He is indwelt by the Spirit...and if he is willing to study the word...in time he will understand the grace of God.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

When he is regenerated and saved, yes.

 

[quantumfaith]

Hebrews 11:6
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

6 Now without faith it is impossible to please God, for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

 

[AresMan]

Scripture teaches, "Many are called, but few are chosen," thus proving that all called are not necessarily chosen.

Yes, this would be the "general call." This is the call that refers to the proclamation of the message.
Q. Who are those chosen?
A. The ones who respond to the call.

Q. Why do they respond to the call?
A. Because they were effectually called by God (as other passages indicate below).

Even real Calvinists affirms the universal nature of the gospel's call. So, the question at hand is whether the "call" Paul is speaking of (in Romans 8) is the so-called "effectual calling" of the Calvinistic system (which is NEVER expounded upon in scripture), or if he is simply speaking of the gospel call (which is extensively taught about) by which those who do respond are justified, sanctified and glorified. In the list Paul gives, the faith response is not included, it is assumed, thus to insist this text supports the Calvinistic rendering is presumptuous...and really an argument from silence.

All these verbs are transitive active verbs with God as the subject and people as the direct object. The same group of people are the recipients of all these actions. None is a subset of the other.

The foreknow is NOT pertaining to knowing "facts" about people. The people are the object. The people are foreknown. It does not say "about whom he did foreknow." It is they who are foreknown.

Example: In Matthew 1:25, Joseph did not know (ginwskw) his wife until she conceived. It is in the context of an intimate relationship. When God foreknows people, it means that he "fore-relationships" them. There is NO way to get the idea of God foreknowing their faith from the grammar of the golden chain of redemption in Romans 8.

1 Corinthians 1:
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

What is the nature of this "calling"? Obviously not every single Jew or Greek is "called" here, because the ones who are "called" are contrasted with the remainder of the whole.

1 Corinthians 1:
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Hmm. It doesn't seem here that God is "trying" to save every individual. Rather, He intends to confound the Jew and Greek in general (those who think they are wise, mighty, and noble). On the contrary, the ones who are "called" out of these groups, Christ is power and wisdom. Sounds pretty effectual to me, and distinguishable from the "general call."

So, what is the differentiating factor?

1 Corinthians 1:
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

We are in Christ Jesus because of the effectual call of God. The only reason that we have the wisdom of the gospel is because of God are we in Christ Jesus.

:applause: