Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

[Silverhair]

I DO NOT take the position that preaching the Gospel is no longer needed. You are misconstruing what I wrote. I said very clearly, that is where your position logically leads. If you refuse to interact with my logical syllogism, that's up to you. I've made my point.

I have not said this, nor do I believe it. So you are bearing false witness about me, something the Bible strongly condemns. You are sinning when you misconstrue me like this.

Did you totally miss my point based on Matthew 7:7? When a person honestly seeks God, the Lord provides a way for him to hear the Gospel. I could give many illustrations from history. Can you give a single example of someone who got saved without Christ? Just one? No? I thought not.

Why are you ignoring key parts of my posts? Stop misconstruing my position. I believe you can do better than this, and so please interact honestly and carefully with what I've written.


Believe me, I'm totally secure in my life's work, and not worried in the slightest that it is of no import. God is so good to have let me be a missionary and now a professor teaching missions.

No contradiction whatsoever. God can do many things that He doesn't do. Surely that's obvious. He could crash Venus into Jupiter, but He doesn't. He could save people without the Gospel, but He doesn't.

You did not interact with the words of Jesus, but just dismissed them without explaining what Jesus meant with His clear statement. Jesus said that there is only one way to the Father (Who is in Heaven). You say there are other ways. You are saying that Jesus is wrong. Very simple logic. I rest my case.

I have to ask, though, do you purposefully misconstrue what I write? You've done it over and over. If you are doing this on purpose, thinking it is good debate technique. It's not. It just makes me think, "Man, this guy can't understand the simplest things I write."

John I am not debating you But rather just making comment. You have stated over and over what your view is and I have done the same. Please see Post # 119

 

[Silverhair]

What 'words from Calvinism'? You have just taken some verses from the Bible and claimed, falsely, that Calvinists don't believe them. If you knew anything about Calvinism you would know how silly that makes you look.

Oh you may believe them once they are read through your calvinst glasses but the question is does that match what the bible actually says? That is why not just me but a number of people on this and other boards disagree with the calvinist take on scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Folks, there are many clear examples from missions history of individuals or people groups who seek God because of general/natural revelation and find Him through the Gospel. The key passage here is Matthew 7:7, "Seek and ye shall find." However, in Romans 1, the passage Silverhair likes so much, the word "save" in its forms only appears in v. 16, which is clearly about the Gospel, not natural revelation. The passage on natural revelation there does not mention salvation, but only teaches that God can clearly be seen in nature.

I've mentioned two books along the line of heathen people seeking Christ and then God sending someone to them. Bill Rice took a trip to Africa in the 1950s and wrote a book about it, Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa. In Ch. 13 he tells about going to a pygmy tribe deep in the jungle where no white man had ever been. He had a hard time getting them to hear the Gospel; they were more interested in the strange, huge, white man. But one day after he talked of the love of God and how He sent Jesus, an old pygmy named Tarasi said, "I thought it must be something like that. Many times I have climbed the highest tree and have looked far into the sky, trying to see God. I felt sure He must be up there someplace. And again and again I have called, God are You there? Can you hear me? Do you see little old Tarasi. God, I am afraid--come and help Tarasi." He continued, "I thought God surely must have some way of helping poor old Tarasi.... I am glad to hear of Jesus and to know that He died for me.... I thought it must be something like that" (p. 140). Revival came to the pygmies, and many trusted Christ, with Tarasi being the first and his son the second.

So you see, Silverhair's doctrine is wrong empirically, not just Biblically. I have challenged Silverhair to produce one single person who became saved without Christ from missions history, biographies, etc. He can't do it, because it doesn't happen.

Did Tarasi seek God YES did God provide a way for him to know the gospel YES and I am glad that He did. But to say that is the only way is to read into your story. What do you say to all those that, as Tarasi, seek God but never had the chance to hear the gospel? You would have to say they are lost but the bible says Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. You are restricting God you your view but He is sovereign and as you have said before He can do as He pleases and it seems He leases to save those that seek Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Please show me where I said the “gospel is the means that saves from hell”?

Salvation means to have a right relationship with God. That right relationship rests on the foundation of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

According to scripture, the elect do not enter into that right relationship with God until God Holy Spirit works in their lives, convicting them of sin and the truth of Christ’s sacrifice. When we accept that truth with faith in Christ that is when we are brought into a right relationship with God.

You seem to be saying people are saved prior to faith. If that is what you are saying, then your error is as great as the “true trust” false gospel of Silverhair.

peace to you

Perhaps you need to revise your view. Isaiah 45:21 ...there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Notice what is not said there, believe the gospel. One may say the words but God look at the heart.

 

[Silverhair]

You have proven nothing of the sort.


Pulling a case from another context does not make your case.

Does not change my claim, Matthew 22:14.

I am not sure but is Austin now calling himself a prophet? That seems to be the case he is making for all those that think they were elect/chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Silverhair]

Continued from above:

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

He did this so we may receive his life as a gift. The Spirit of life is the gift of God. He has poured him out from heaven in such abundance that any and all may open their mouths and drink him in. The operative principle of receiving him is by repentance of our sins against God, the offended party, and by believing his gospel, or good news, that he has done in his body everything that God requires of us and has imputed his righteousness to us in the person of the Holy Spirit, who at the same time is the agent of the new birth into his family.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

This negates completely silverhair's doctrine. The only way to get the son is by believing the record that God has given of him. He that has the life of the son, his Spirit, is same/same as having the son. This is the only way to have life.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (body & soul), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Soul, body, and Spirit).

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ti 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (the blood and water of the cross)
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Perhaps you should read my post # 119

 

[Silverhair]

Honestly, at what point do you intend or dare to study the passages instead of cherrypick sentences like the heathen do?
Tell me when you intend to honestly study God's word and we can have a meaningful discussion. As it is, I have seen atheists care more about context than you seem to care.

37 the only way that Austin would agree with you is if you would believe his false understand of scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

For all you that are commenting on what I have said here are a few questions for you.


1] Is God sovereign

2] Does God change

3] Are we told how one can be saved

4] Were people saved prior to the cross

5] Are we told that we can know God through creation

6] Are we saved by the name or by who the name refers to

1. Yes, God is sovereign.

Why do you deny the clear teaching that God, in His sovereignty, has chosen the preaching of the gospel as the only means to bring salvation to His people?

2. God’s nature does not change.

His interaction with humanity has changed, which is clear from Hebrews 1, which says in times past God has revealed Himself in various and sundry ways, but in these last days, He reveals Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ.

3. Yes, we are told how we can be saved. There are 3 ways revealed in scripture.

a. You can believe God exists by what He has created and worship Him appropriately. (General revelation) Scripture tells us no one has ever come to faith in God through General revelation and never will. They have all turn away, none seek God and the world stands condemned.

b. You can keep the OT Law perfectly. Scripture tells us no one has ever kept the OT Law perfectly and never will. All stand condemned.

c. You can accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Scripture tells us this is the means that was “well pleasing” to God to save those that believe.

4. Yes, people saved by the special revelation of God revealing Himself to them specifically and they responded with faith, not because they did anything to merit God’s intervention in their lives, but that God had chosen them for His plan and made it come to pass.

Part of that revelation was the coming of the Messiah. According to Hebrews, the OT Saints believed that promise, so yes, the gospel (good news) of the Messiah was always part of God’s plan of salvation.

5. Yes, but no one has ever been save by General revelation found in creation and never will.

6. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Without the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed if God.

Quite frankly, it is shameful that this has to be debated in a Christian forum.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

1. Yes, God is sovereign.

Why do you deny the clear teaching that God, in His sovereignty, has chosen the preaching of the gospel as the only means to bring salvation to His people?

2. God’s nature does not change.

His interaction with humanity has changed, which is clear from Hebrews 1, which says in times past God has revealed Himself in various and sundry ways, but in these last days, He reveals Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ.

3. Yes, we are told how we can be saved. There are 3 ways revealed in scripture.

a. You can believe God exists by what He has created and worship Him appropriately. (General revelation) Scripture tells us no one has ever come to faith in God through General revelation and never will. They have all turn away, none seek God and the world stands condemned.

b. You can keep the OT Law perfectly. Scripture tells us no one has ever kept the OT Law perfectly and never will. All stand condemned.

c. You can accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Scripture tells us this is the means that was “well pleasing” to God to save those that believe.

4. Yes, people saved by the special revelation of God revealing Himself to them specifically and they responded with faith, not because they did anything to merit God’s intervention in their lives, but that God had chosen them for His plan and made it come to pass.

Part of that revelation was the coming of the Messiah. According to Hebrews, the OT Saints believed that promise, so yes, the gospel (good news) of the Messiah was always part of God’s plan of salvation.

5. Yes, but no one has ever been save by General revelation found in creation and never will.

6. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Without the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed if God.

Quite frankly, it is shameful that this has to be debated in a Christian forum.

peace to you

So as per normal you really do not read you just blow and bluster. Did you actually get past the questions? I doubt.

 

[Alan Gross]

God gives mankind a choice
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.
Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Here we see it plainly stated, God has revealed Himself within the heart of every man.
Rom_1:20a For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
Again, from the very start, the attributes of God are seen and know by every man.
Rom_1:20b being understood through what has been made,
Not just seen, but understood.
Rom_1:20c so that they are without excuse.
Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart, acceptance or rejection of these truths is his choice.
Rom_1:21a For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,
Man knows God but will deny all that points to God.
Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Man wants to control his own destiny without God

There is no other way to interpret these verses.
If God had never revealed Himself, then man would indeed have a legal excuse when they stand before God. But note that man does have a choice either that or God is being disingenuous and man really has no way of knowing God.

If God desires to let people know Him through other means then who are you to say that He is wrong. When the bible tells me that man will be held responsible for not knowing God then that tells me that God has provided the way for them to know Him. If that way had not been provided then none of the OT saints would have come to know God or to be saved as the gospel of Christ was not being preached then was it?

I am always surprised at the number of "Christians" that deny God the ability to do as He pleases.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.

These people were allowed by God to HARDEN themselves more, into MORE DARKNESS,
GIVEN UP by God.

The ASSUMPTION that these souls "KNEW SPIRITUAL TRUTH",
is not supported by the ONE INTERPRETATION, of The ONE WAY of SALVATION.

Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Here we see it plainly stated, God has revealed Himself within the heart of every man.

This is Not a REGENERATION "revealed", it is HIS CHARACTER of Being Perfectly Holy,
against there being "CONDEMNED, ALREADY.

This verse, as the others, TEACH CONDEMNATION of the lost,
Given The Non-Saving "revelation, of GOD'S EXISTENCE and THEIR GUILT, before HIM.

Rom_1:20a For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
Again, from the very start, the attributes of God are seen and know by every man.

"Clearly seen" To Their Guilt And Sin And Hopelessness, before God, to CONDEMNATION.

There is no, "REGENERATION", expressed by this verse.

Rom_1:20b being understood through what has been made,
Not just seen, but understood.

"Understood"To Their Guilt And Sin And Hopelessness, before God, to CONDEMNATION.

There is no, "REGENERATION", expressed by this verse.

Rom_1:20c so that they are without excuse.
Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart, acceptance or rejection of these truths is his choice.

This assumption that acceptance of "SALVATION", involved here, there would have to be CONVICTION of their SIN, and REPENTANCE and FAITH GIVEN, for this verse to refer to, "REGENERATION".

"Without excuse means what it says.
Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart"
is all that is "known", for these individuals would be CONDEMNED.

Rom_1:21a For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,
Man knows God but will deny all that points to God.

All that man "knows" from God REVEALING HIMSELF/ HIS EXSISTANCE,
in a NONE SAVING WAY, to them, is for their QUILT And CONDEMNATION.

"there would have to be CONVICTION of their SIN, and REPENTANCE and FAITH GIVEN,
for this verse to refer to, "REGENERATION".

Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Man wants to control his own destiny without God

"Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened".

DEAD.

NO ABILITY, or SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE of GOD "REVEALED", leaving ALL MEN TRYING, but UNABLE, "to control his own destiny without God".

 

[Alan Gross]

1. Yes, God is sovereign.

Why do you deny the clear teaching that God, in His sovereignty, has chosen the preaching of the gospel as the only means to bring salvation to His people?

2. God’s nature does not change.

His interaction with humanity has changed, which is clear from Hebrews 1, which says in times past God has revealed Himself in various and sundry ways, but in these last days, He reveals Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ.

3. Yes, we are told how we can be saved. There are 3 ways revealed in scripture.

a. You can believe God exists by what He has created and worship Him appropriately. (General revelation) Scripture tells us no one has ever come to faith in God through General revelation and never will. They have all turn away, none seek God and the world stands condemned.

b. You can keep the OT Law perfectly. Scripture tells us no one has ever kept the OT Law perfectly and never will. All stand condemned.

c. You can accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Scripture tells us this is the means that was “well pleasing” to God to save those that believe.

4. Yes, people saved by the special revelation of God revealing Himself to them specifically and they responded with faith, not because they did anything to merit God’s intervention in their lives, but that God had chosen them for His plan and made it come to pass.

Part of that revelation was the coming of the Messiah. According to Hebrews, the OT Saints believed that promise, so yes, the gospel (good news) of the Messiah was always part of God’s plan of salvation.

5. Yes, but no one has ever been save by General revelation found in creation and never will.

6. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Without the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed if God.

Quite frankly, it is shameful that this has to be debated in a Christian forum.

peace to you

I would like to put FIVE, or MORE, "WINNER" Badges on this, Supurb.

 

[Silverhair]

These people were allowed by God to HARDEN themselves more, into MORE DARKNESS,
GIVEN UP by God.

The ASSUMPTION that these souls "KNEW SPIRITUAL TRUTH",
is not supported by the ONE INTERPRETATION, of The ONE WAY of SALVATION.



This is Not a REGENERATION "revealed", it is HIS CHARACTER of Being Perfectly Holy, against there being "CONDEMNED, ALREADY.

This verse, as the others, TEACH CONDEMNATION of the lost,
Given The Non-Saving "revelation, of GOD'S EXISTENCE and THEIR GUILT, before HIM.



"Clearly seen" To Their Guilt And Sin And Hopelessness, before God, to CONDEMNATION.

There is no, "REGENERATION", expressed by this verse.




"Understood"To Their Guilt And Sin And Hopelessness, before God, to CONDEMNATION.

There is no, "REGENERATION", expressed by this verse.





This assumption that acceptance of "SALVATION", involved here, there would have to be CONVICTION of their SIN, and REPENTANCE and FAITH GIVEN, for this verse to refer to, "REGENERATION".

"Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart"
is all that is "known", for these individuals would be CONDEMNED.




All that man "knows" from God REVEALING HIMSELF/ HIS EXSISTANCE, in a NONE SAVING WAY, to them, is for their QUILT And CONDEMNATION.

"there would have to be CONVICTION of their SIN, and REPENTANCE and FAITH GIVEN, for this verse to refer to, "REGENERATION".





"Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened".

DEAD.

NO ABILITY, or SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE of GOD "REVEALED", leaving ALL MEN TRYING, but UNABLE, "to control his own destiny without God".

You seem to miss the fact for truth to be suppress the truth has to be known. If God is going to judge them for rejecting that truth then they must also have the ability to believe the truth. Does man sin YES is man able to know and accept the truth YES. That is why we are told the Holy Spirit convicts man. Why convict man of sin if it does not lead some to repentance?

 

[Silverhair]

I would like to put FIVE, or MORE, "WINNER" Badges on this, Supurb.

Did you bother reading my post or are you just a fanboy of canadyjd?

 

[Alan Gross]

Able: Enoch: Noah, Abraham: Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob:
Having been CONVICTED of HIS SINS AGAINST GOD,
and GIVEN REPENTANCE to TURN from their SIN and FAITH,
in The DEATH, BURIAL, and RESSURECTION, of Jesus Christ, AS THEIR SAVIOR.

JESUS is The SAVIOR.
None of the other FACTS "REVEALED by GOD HAD "REGENERATION POWER".

This PERSON'S SOUL was SAVED BY TRUSTING the PROMISED MESSIAH.

Able: God had revealed to Adam and his descendants the true way of worship, and Abel obeyed God by faith.
Enoch: We must have both the desire to please Him and the diligence to seek Him.
Noah: His faith involved the whole person: his mind was warned of God; his heart was moved with fear; and his will acted on what God told him.
Abraham: By faith he obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.
Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob: These can all be included in those that trusted God. These patriarchs all continued to live by faith, and they died believing God would fulfill His promises to them eventually. They looked forward to possessing a land that God promised to give them. Some of the latter saints would have had more general revelation regarding the coming Messiah but even those would not have know the gospel message but were still saved. Or do you think they were not saved?

Having been CONVICTED of THEIR SINS AGAINST GOD,
and GIVEN REPENTANCE to TURN from their SIN and GIVEN DIVINE FAITH,
in The DEATH, BURIAL, and RESSURECTION, of Jesus Christ, AS THEIR SAVIOR.

JESUS is The SAVIOR.
None of the other FACTS "REVEALED by GOD HAD "REGENERATION POWER".

THIS PERSON'S SOUL was SAVED BY TRUSTING the PROMISED MESSIAH.

The promise of a coming redeemer can be seen as we look back at Genesis 3:15 but the OT saints would not have know the means of their salvation from those words.


Having been CONVICTED of HIS SINS AGAINST GOD, and GIVEN RETENCE to TURN from their SIN and FAITH, in The DEATH, BURIAL, and RESSURECTION, of Jesus Christ, AS THEIR SAVIOR.

JESUS is The SAVIOR.
None of the other FACTS "REVEALED by GOD HAD "REGENERATION POWER".

This PERSON'S SOUL was SAVED BY TRUSTING the PROMISED MESSIAH.

THERE IS ONE WAY OF SALVATION
And that IS in the Person AND Work OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Do you have a testimony of "SALVATION" that INCLUDES JESUS CHRIST?


But we do see in Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." a clear indication that man can know God through general revelation

Faith Must be GIVEN to the LOST SINNER, by
Having been CONVICTED of HIS SINS AGAINST GOD,
and GIVEN RETENCE to TURN from their SIN and FAITH,
in The DEATH, BURIAL, and RESSURECTION, of Jesus Christ, AS THEIR SAVIOR.

JESUS is The SAVIOR.
None of the other FACTS "REVEALED by GOD HAD "REGENERATION POWER".

This PERSON'S SOUL was SAVED BY TRUSTING the PROMISED MESSIAH.

THERE IS ONE WAY OF SALVATION
And that IS in the Person AND Work OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

which comports well with God's stated desire for all to come to repentance 1 Timothy 2:3-4

GILL: the will of God, that all men should be saved,
is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man,
or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved;

and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture;
but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation,
and which infallibly secures it:
nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent;

with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures,
and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it,
according to their future conduct and behavior;

but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable,
and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency,
which expresses only what would be grateful and well-pleasing, should it be,
and which is not always fulfilled;

but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted,
so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God,
the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God,
has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men;

it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved;

nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved:

hence by all men, whom God would have saved,
cannot be meant every individual of mankind,

since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved,

unless there are two contrary wills in God;

for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation,
and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;

and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie,
that they all might be damned;

nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should;

for who hath resisted his will?

but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned,
and who will go into everlasting punishment:

rather therefore all sorts of men,
agreeably to the use of the phrase in ( 1 Timothy 2:1 )

are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor,
bond and free, male and female,
young and old, greater and lesser sinners;

and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men,
because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved;

and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world,
the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also

come to the knowledge of the truth:

of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him,
and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus;

not merely to a notional knowledge of it,
which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved,

but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it;

and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge,

which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God,

who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths
from the wise and prudent,

and reveals them to babes:

whence it appears, that it is not his will
with respect to every individual of mankind;

that they should thus come to the knowledge of the truth;

for was it his will they should, he would, no doubt,
give to every man the means of it,

which he has not, nor does he;
he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways,

and overlooked their times of ignorance, and sent no message

nor messenger to inform them of his will; he gave his word to Jacob,

and his statutes unto Israel only;
and the Gospel is now sent into one part of the world,

and not another; and where it does come, it is hid to the most;

many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie,
and few are savingly and experimentally acquainted
with the truths of the Gospel;

though all that are saved are brought to the knowledge of such truths

as are necessary to salvation;

for they are chosen to it through sanctification of the Spirit,
and belief of the truth.

and with the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting the world of sin John 16:8

to CONDEMNATION,
with NO "REGENERATION through The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST IMPLIED.

and provides the reason that those that reject God really have no excuse and will stand condemned. Romans 1:20

Actually it seems the truth will be a surprise to you. You must be reading into the scriptures what you are looking for rather than trusting what the text says. Your failure to trust the bible is where you come up short. You are trying to put God into a calvinist box so He can only save according to your view. As I said before you seem to have a much lower view of God than either the bible or I have.

"Your failure to trust the bible is where you come up short."

Let's TURN THIS AROUND, WHERE IT WILL DO SOME GOOD.

 

[unprofitable]

John 14:6 ...no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME.

No man, zero, zilch, nada, none, no other way.

The FATHER had ordained/established that the gospel/covenant of Christ was the only way to the Father.

How could the Son, for whom the Father has ordained that all creation was made for his glory, be given the glory due him if there is another way to the Father?

 

[Alan Gross]

I realize what you said but since you support the calvinist DoG / TULIP that calls you words into question. Be that as it may, I am not here to tell you what to believe as that has been determined for you already.

As I said before you have this strange idea that you were elected before time began, which is not a biblical idea but rather a calvinist construct. But the idea that God would actually love His creation enough that He would provide various ways to know and trust in Him you call another gospel. Strange very very strange.

Those that have not heard the gospel message may still be enlightened by the same one who wrote the commandments on the tables of stone. Through a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit, a universal drawing of the Father. God gives His grace to all men John 1:9 and that is why all men can and will be held responsible for their actions Romans 1:20

God created mankind with a conscience. It is because of this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So when the Holy Spirit convicts a man they can either turn to God or reject Him. That is one of the reasons that we are told that man is without excuse.

Your failure to trust the bible is where you come up short.

But the idea that God would actually love His creation enough that He would provide various ways to know and trust in Him you call another gospel. Strange very very strange.

Jesus is The Savior.

There ONE WAY of Spiritual Salvation.

Jesus said, "I Am The Way, The Truth, And The Life".

"The Way, The Truth, And The Life"
is NOT INCLUDED in,
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf"He would provide various ways to know and trust in Him".

Through a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit, a universal drawing of the Father. God gives His grace to all men John 1:9 and that is why all men can and will be held responsible for their actions Romans 1:20

There is a COMMON, "GENERAL CALLING",
"a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit,
a universal drawing of the Father."

THAT IS NOT A REGENERATING, SPIRITUAL,
"though unknown Saviour, dispensed, drawing,"

that ONLY CONDEMNS ALL MEN
and The COMMON, "GENERAL CALLING",
"a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit,
a universal drawing of the Father."

IS NOT A REGENERATING, SPIRITUAL,

AND if AN INDIVIDUAL CONTINUES
to RESIST THE COMMON, GENERAL CALL,
they
HAVE COMMITTED The UNPARDONABLE SIN
when they Die Dead in their sins.

God created mankind with a conscience.

The CONSCIENCE CONVICTS of SIN and HAS NO REGENERATIVE ABILITY at all.

It is because of this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad

A LOST INDIVIDUAL is ABLE to "KNOW" Good or Bad", in the REALM of THE FLESH, ONLY.

NOTHING REGENERATIVE is IMPLIED.

So when the Holy Spirit convicts a man they can either turn to God or reject Him. That is one of the reasons that we are told that man is without excuse.

Lost SOULS are TAUGHT by COMMON, GENERAL REVELATION, as above,
that they are without excuse.

The WORD of GOD must COME to THEIR DEAD SOUL
and GIVE THEIR SOUL CONVICTION, by The POWER of The HOLY SPIRIT,
to then GRANT REPENTANCE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST.

That is THE NEW BIRTH.

It is a SPECIAL SPIRITUAL CALL that is ALWAYS ANSWERED.

THAT is HOW The BIBLE TEACHES that GOD SAVES SOULS.

Souls are UTTERLY lost in sin.

JESUS SAVES to The UTTERMOST.

...
THE OUTWARD ( COMMON, GENERAL)
AND THE (SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALLS

adopted from: T.P. Simmons

Election has to do with the purposing and planning of salvation.

The atonement has to do with the provision of it.

We come now to study the application and communication of salvation to the elect.

I. THE OUTWARD CALL ( COMMON, GENERAL)

The Scripture clearly speaks of two different calls.

THE OUTWARD ( COMMON, GENERAL)
AND THE (SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALLS

The first one in the order of occurrence
is known generally as the outward or external call.

= THE OUTWARD ( COMMON, GENERAL)

The following Scriptures refer to this call:
Isa. 45:22; 55:6; Matt. 9:13; 11:28; 22:14; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; Rev. 22:17.

There are other Scriptures that evidently refer to both calls.

These are reserved until we take up the inward call.

1. THE CALL (THE SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALLS
IS THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL.

It was by means of the gospel that Jesus called sinners to repentance.

Today every presentation of the gospel
is a call to men to forsake sin and trust Christ.

THE CALL (THE SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALL

The preaching of the gospel is also properly attended
by a setting forth of man's need of salvation
and of his duty and responsibility under God
to repent and believe (Acts 17:30).

There should also be the earnest entreaty to men to be reconciled to God
(2 Cor. 5:20) THE CALL (THE SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALL

and an invitation THE CALL (THE SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALL
to all that labor (Matt. 11:28),

and are athirst THE CALL (THE SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL) INWARD CALL
(Isa. 55:1; John 7:37; Rev. 22:17).

2. THIS CALL IS AN INDIRECT CALL OF THE SPIRIT

See the discussion of the indirect work of the Spirit in the lost in Chapter IX.

 

[canadyjd]

This thread is getting close to the point it will close.

I want to thank everyone who posted or joined in to read. It’s been a good discussion.

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

3. THIS CALL, THEREFORE, IS GENERAL By this we mean that it is not confined to the elect (Matt. 22:14). We are commanded to preach the gospel to all. This call is intended for all men, though all do not hear it. This is true just as all men are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30), even though all men do not hear this command. 4. THIS CALL, OF ITSELF, IS ALWAYS INEFFECTIVE To Israel God said: "When I called, ye did not answer" (Isa. 65:12). The call referred to here was an outward call similar to the call now under discussion. Because of man's depravity, the preaching of the gospel alone is never sufficient to bring him to Christ. He needs more than an outward call. The gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Rom. 1:16); but "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1 Cor. 2:14). Man must be enabled to turn from sin and believe on Christ. Jer. 13:23; John 12:39,40; 6:44,65. Nevertheless it is the immediate duty of all to accept this call. Acts 17:30. 5. THIS CALL IS SINCERE Arminians object that the Calvinistic system of doctrine makes a general call insincere. Sincere means "being in reality as in appearance. Intending precisely what one says or what one appears to intend." Having defined the term under discussion, we are now prepared to examine into the exact grounds of this objection. Three Calvinistic teachings are pointed out as rendering a general call insincere. They are: (1) The teaching that man by nature is unable to turn from sin to Christ.

Arminians say if the case with the natural man were such as Calvinists represent it, and this were fully known to God, then God could not be sincere in inviting men to come to Christ. But there is nothing in the general call that makes it appear that all men are able to respond to it. This is nothing more than an unwarranted inference. And it has its foundation, not in the call itself, but in an erroneous conception of man's state by nature. Hence this call is not insincere. "God's call to all men to repent and to believe the gospel is no more insincere than His command to all men to Love Him with all the heart. There is no obstacle in the way of men's obedience to the gospel, that does not exist to prevent their obedience to the law. If it is proper to publish the commands of the law, it is proper to publish the invitations of the gospel. A human being may be perfectly sincere in giving an invitation which he knows will be refused. He may desire to have the invitation accepted, while yet he may, for certain reasons of justice and personal dignity, be unwilling to put forth special efforts, aside from the invitation itself, to secure the acceptance of it on the part of those to whom it is offered" (Strong). Does God's invitation or call to all men any more appear to indicate that all men can accept it than His command to all men to love Him supremely appears to indicate that all men can do it? (2) The teaching as to God's elective purpose to save only a portion of Adam's race. Arminians say if God has purposed to save only a portion of Adam's race, then He cannot sincerely invite all men to come to Christ for salvation. Let it first be remarked as to this phase of the objection that the objector, to have even the semblance of consistency, must deny the foreknowledge of God. For, if God foreknew everything, then He certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel, since we see that all do not.

 

[canadyjd]

So as per normal you really do not read you just blow and bluster. Did you actually get past the questions? I doubt.

I answered your specific questions with specific answers based on scripture. Only someone with no intellectual honesty would criticize someone for answering their specific questions with specific answers based on scripture.

As per normal, you will not allow the truth of scripture to get in the way of proclaiming your false gospel of “true trust”.

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

So, if the foreknowledge of God be true, then God purposed to save only a part of Adam's race, believers. Hence consistency demands that the Arminian surrender either this phase of the objection or else surrender the foreknowledge of God. He cannot be logical and hold both. (3) The doctrine of a limited atonement. This was touched on in relation to the sincerity of God's general call through the gospel in the previous chapter. However we give it further brief notice. If one is going before a large number of people to offer to each one of them a ten-dollar bill, and he has inerrant knowledge before hand that only a hundred out of that number will accept his offer, need he in order to make a sincere offer to all have more than one hundred ten-dollar bills? Surely not. Knowing that he has a sufficient number to supply all that will accept the offer, he can most freely and sincerely say, "Let every one of you that desires a ten-dollar bill come to me and I will give you one." Is it not manifest to all who can think logically that, in a case such as is described above, the failure of all the people except the hundred to receive a ten-dollar bill would be due to their refusal of the offer, and not to lack of provision? God's general call is in appearance no more than it is in reality. And He appears to intend no more than He does actually intend. This does not appear as something that all men can respond to nor as something that will enable men to come to Christ or that will necessarily impel them to come. Nor does this call appear to affirm that God has made a futile provision of salvation for those who persist in unbelief. In this call God appears to intend that all men are welcome if they will come; that all who come will be received. He actually intends just this. It is just as much a Bible truth that all who come to Christ will be saved as it is that only the elect will be saved. We can heartily and gladly subscribe to the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith in saying that "nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth except his own inherent depravity and voluntary refusal to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, these are the things that send the sinner to Hell.

II. THE INWARD CALL The following Scriptures refer to the inward call: Acts 2:39; Rom. 1:6; 8.28,30; 9:11,24; 1 Cor. 1:1,26; 7:15; Gal. 1:15; 5:8; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1.15; 2:9; 3:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3,10; Jude 1. Some of these Scriptures, as has been indicated already, seem to allude to both the inward and outward call. 1. THIS CALL IS A DIRECT CALL THROUGH THE SPIRIT The Holy Spirit takes the preached gospel and opening the heart of the sinner (Acts 16:14), applies the word to the heart in regenerating power.

It is then, and only then, that man is able to understand and receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Thus the inward call is also through the gospel, but it is through the gospel as applied by the Holy Spirit.

The Scriptures touching on this work of the Spirit through the word will be given when we study regeneration.

2. THIS CALL IS PARTICULAR By means of it the chosen objects of God's saving grace are singled out. The difference here between the outward and the inward calls may be imperfectly illustrated by the difference between a general invitation extended by a church to the people of a community to attend its services and the personal invitations that are extended to particular individuals by the membership of the church. Of course, as we have said, this only imperfectly illustrates the difference between God's two calls. Rom. 8:30 shows the particularity of this call.

3. THIS CALL IS ALWAYS EFFECTIVE

It is manifest that the Scriptures
given at the beginning of the discussion
of this call refer to an effective and efficient call.

This call is never resisted;

yet, in responding to it, man acts voluntarily
and freely.

See chapter The FREE AGENCY of MAN on http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

The effectiveness of this
INWARD SPECIFIC SPIRITUAL call is shown
by Rom. 8:28,
"And we know that all things work together
for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called
according to his purpose."

30;
"Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified."

1 Cor. 1:24.
"But unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God,
and the wisdom of God."