No coward. Jesus warned of casting your pearls before swine. These things that you doubt and mock are the very things I hold dear and treasure. So why would I bring them before you only to have them trampled under your feet? I have witnessed and I have been a part of these things, and I have ZERO interest in convincing you by giving you "examples" for your scrutiny.
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is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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No coward. Jesus warned of casting your pearls before swine. These things that you doubt and mock are the very things I hold dear and treasure. So why would I bring them before you only to have them trampled under your feet? I have witnessed and I have been a part of these things, and I have ZERO interest in convincing you by giving you "examples" for your scrutiny.
That's fine.
No, it's not fine. You would not post about being involved in healings and then resent being questioned about it, unless you presume what you say should be followed without question, as I said.
The resentment comes in from your initial post on this thread. It is obvious that you are here simply to mock and ridicule. If you had a sincere heart as to these things, I would be more than happy to talk. But, as is obvious, you're interest lies only in ridicule and name calling. Your demeanor is your downfall.
I'm asking you to back up what you claimed instead of posting something and saying it is not open to cross examination. As for ridicule and name calling, that seems to go for both of us, as you said conversing to me is "casting pearls before swine." I may not have great demeanor, but your degooder ain't no better.
No, you went a little further than simply asking for testimony. Anyone can see that. And I can see that you are not at all interested in hearing anything that doesn't meet your list of requirements as laid out in your initial post on this thread. "Cross examination." haha
I will take the advice of Jesus which was not a personal attack nor name calling, but a principle. If there was anything said to you personally, it was in reference to your demeanor. Have a nice day
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Thomas Helwys
New Member
No, you went a little further than simply asking for testimony. Anyone can see that. And I can see that you are not at all interested in hearing anything that doesn't meet your list of requirements as laid out in your initial post on this thread. "Cross examination." haha
I will take the advice of Jesus which was not a personal attack nor name calling, but a principle. If there was anything said to you personally, it was in reference to your demeanor. Have a nice day
Oh, the use of the word "blasphemy" is not a personal attack?
What is blasphemy is claiming to do works under the power and authority of the Holy Spirit but which are actually counterfeit and of the devil.
One "miracle" which I saw repeatedly performed was the supposed lengthening of a leg that was purportedly shorter than the other. This is nothing more than the trick of a charlatan.
I'll name some frauds in this movement: Benny Hinn, Mike Murdock, Morris Cerullo.
Here is part of an article on Morris Cerullo:
"CONTROVERSY
Cerullo has proven to be a highly controversial figure, with concerns being raised about his fund-raising practices. Over the years Cerullo has been criticized for the manner and style of his fundraising practices in the developed countries to finance his mission work.
As a Christian of Jewish origin, he has carried a few evangelistic campaigns targeted at the Jewish community, drawing some condemnation from anti-missionary organizations and claims of deceptive practices.
While no charges were brought against Cerullo's ministry, Cerullo was found to have underrepresented his income for 1998 through 2000. However, on August 8, 2007, the US District Court, Southern District of California ordered that the indictment be dismissed as a consequence of the prosecutor's inaccurate explanation of the Duberstein test to the jury. An extract from the ruling was published on Cerullo's website.
United Kingdom
Cerullo's activities in the United Kingdom have attracted considerable critical attention, particularly during the early 1990s.
In 1991, British authorities suspended the license of a satellite station for broadcasting the program, Victory with Morris Cerullo. The license was reinstated after the station agreed to precede the program with the disclaimer, "Morris Cerullo World Evangelism cannot substantiate the claims made by those participants featured in this programme," and advising all persons suffering from illness to seek medical attention.
Following Cerullo's Mission to London in 1992, a documentary on the BBC, Newsround, reported that a lady called Audrey Reynolds stopped taking medication for epilepsy (although she was never instructed or advised to do so by the ministry) after she believed herself to have been healed during Cerullo's rally. She subsequently died following a seizure in her bath. The story was also reported in a Christian newspaper. Another report from this crusade claimed that Cerullo pronounced a four year old cancer sufferer to be free from the disease, yet she died from it just two months later.
Cerullo has claimed that giving money to send evangelistic booklets to Jewish people would result in family members becoming Christians. Rev Dr Chris Wright, principle of All Nations Christian College, denounced Cerullo's methods as "spiritually perverted and pastorally disastrous". The Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks was quoted as being "deeply distressed by missionary tactics specifically targeted against Jews".
Subsequently, Cerullo was challenged on British television to produce his three best examples of claimed miraculous healing for scrutiny by a panel of doctors. Their final report was "there is no evidence that anything has occurred that is outside the realm of normal clinical experience".
Cerullo did resign from the Evangelical Alliance in 1996 after the Advertising Standards Authority upheld four complaints against him relating to his claims of being able to offer miraculous healing to the disabled. Following Cerullo's resignation, Britain's then largest church, Kensington Temple, also left the Alliance in protest.
In 1999, the Christian Channel, a UK cable channel, broadcast an advertisement for one of Cerullo's European rallies which claimed that "Satanic hordes" had "occupied the principal palaces of power." As a result, the channel was fined £20,000 for breaching advertising codes requiring political impartiality, for denigrating other religious beliefs, for potentially frightening viewers, and for making statements prejudicial of "respect for human dignity".
India
Cerullo was expelled from India in 1992 after disturbances erupted at one of his rallies. The Times of India reported, "A so-called miracle healer, Morris Cerullo, who prefers to call himself a man of God, was declared 'persona non grata' and bundled out of the country by Calcutta police this morning after mass healing services on Park Circus Maidan yesterday evening turned into a fiasco when members of the crowd stormed the dais challenging the efficacy of his healing power". A later article in the San Diego Union Tribune suggested that "Cerullo worked a crowd of 30,000 – many of them sick – into a frenzy for two hours and then pronounced them cured, prompting many in the crowd to call him a cheat".
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Can you cast out demons?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
What is truly disgusting is all these fake faith healers taking advantage of people and stealing their money. They will have the closest seats to the flame.
And you call people spiritual morons. What a nice evidence of the fruit of the Spirit that is.
There is nothing wrong with asking for testimony when you just have a vaguery.
That's right. And if you had anything that does meet those requirements you would post it rather than attack my asking it.
If there is anything funny about testing and discerning the spirits, I don't know what it is.
The charismatic movement gets angry when you question their experiences. Because their experience is the standard by which they judge what they want to call a move of God.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I would say some get angry for one simple reason, but I cannot say it here, according to board policy.
I have exposed charlatans at some of their meetings and had them tell me that God would kill me for maligning a prophet of God! One such ministry no longer exists.
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It could be. But what I am referring to (when I replied to a post by another person) was the fact that attributing God's work to the devil is blasphemy, just as Jesus claimed it to be. That's not a personal attack. It is simply stating the facts: attributing the works of the Spirit to the devil is blasphemy.
Did Jesus tell us to do so?
It just struck me funny ... calling it "cross examination." No, there is nothing wrong with asking for testimony. But you simply want to ridicule. You have no interest other than that, as is abundantly apparent in your post.
That is simply not true.
No one on this thread has attributed the work of God to Satan.
It is almost always true.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
That is true.
I have attributed the works of Satan to Satan.
The difference is easily recognizable, to me at least. Maybe because I went in as an objective observer who is also a Christian.
I am passionate to find truth and the true workings of God wherever they exist. Too often, in the Charismatic movement, it is counterfeit, and worse, direct works of Satan.
When you see someone writhing on the floor, laughing hysterically, it is not of God.
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