You're admitting to believing proven errors.
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Is the KJVO Movement Dying?
- Thread starter John of Japan
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I am making a case that "the word of the Lord" cannot have errors.Personally, I would hate to be like you, being passonate to prove errors in the word of God. Not a word about paraphrases, dynamic equivalences, etc. that influences people daily. Something is out of whack in your thinking. and I have to wonder why it is so important to you.I even wonder who sent you.
The truth remains that the 1611 edition of the KJV had several proven errors.
Do you practice what you preach and say anything about paraphrases and dynamic equivalences in the KJV? Are you showing your use of double standards?
Do you say anything about the fact that the makers of the KJV omitted giving any English word/rendering for many original-language words of Scripture in their underlying texts?
You trace your origins to Catholicism don't you?
Do you in effect suggest that all those many Oxford and Cambridge editions of the KJV that followed the new Oxford error introduced in the 1769 Oxford at Exodus 6:21 until it was corrected in the 1873 Cambridge were not "the word of the Lord"?
No, I don't. Your question seems to be an attempted diversion away from the subject of this thread.
I know that my Norris ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War was a Baptist. My parents were Baptists. After I was saved, I joined a Baptist church and have remained a member of Baptist churches.
The word of the LORD is a person. I have shown you this before. The first mention of him by this title and he is visible. It is very early in the third millennium.
Ge 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I (Adonay Jehovah - Lord GOD - the word of the LORD) am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Has anyone ever given any thought to how the word of the LORD is Abrahams shield and exceeding great reward?
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You only think that you show your opinion or claim to be true and scriptural.
Your posts also suggest that the KJV is the word of the LORD. The Lord Jesus Christ is not the KJV. The KJV was not Abraham's shield and exceeding great reward.
The Word referring to the Lord Jesus Christ is not the same thing as the word of God referring to Scripture. You seem to be unwilling to see that the same term or phrase can be used in different meanings in different passages.
You greatly err. In every instance where the word is addressed it is in the same context as Jesus Christ. I have shown this and proved it by comparing scripture. God cannot be separated from his word. We could not know him except through his word. I showed that God did not write anything and preserve it for the first 2500 years of human history and all we know about it is from the testimony of God that he gave to Moses, who wrote Genesis. I have been engaging a Baptist guy on here who says it is all figurative language, it ain't so, as if God cannot tell the truth. Dead sure there was no testimony except God's from before the world wide flood. The testimony of the gospel of John begins the whole thing by saying, "in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
You have never quoted this verse and neither has anyone else who takes your position on the word of God. If it strengthened their argument they would sure quote it often. Jesus Christ is the WORD and his designation as the word of the LORD, Adonay Jehovah, the Lord GOD, beginning in Ge 15 and used 242 times in the OT, proves it.
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
John does not disagree with David and neither of them disagrees with God. The word of God has personality. It is true. It is preserved for ever but it is God who does it.
You describe your own inconsistent, human KJV-only reasoning. You failed to prove your bogus allegation to be true. You seem to think that you are an infallible, perfect "pope" whose human understandings and interpretations cannot be questioned.
Your posts also incorrectly try to suggest that the KJV is the word of the LORD. The Lord Jesus Christ is not the KJV. The KJV was not Abraham's shield and exceeding great reward.
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I will bite. What is the word of God?
The name Baptist has been hijacked by many things. This forum is exhibit A to that reality. It's your doctrine that reveals many things.
My doctrine is sound Baptist doctrine as taught in the Scriptures. You do not demonstrate that my doctrine is not Baptist doctrine.
Human, non-scriptural KJV-only teaching is not Baptist doctrine taught in the Scriptures.
He stands for the truth against false teachings.
His doctrine is false teaching.
Not true. His teaching is accurate about KJVOnly. His research about all the editions of the KJV and all the early pre-KJV Versions is second to none. The KJV is an accurate Bible, still one of the very best ever . But the onlyist teaching is the error.
That is your incorrect and false opinion. Your unsupported claim does not indicate that your statement is true.
You fail to demonstrate from the Scripture that my scripturally-based teaching is false.
I think you are missing the whole point.
I think it takes the scriptures to learn about God. God does not have prophets now and miracles and appearances. Yet the first time Jesus used the term "I am" was in Gen 15. He used this term twice. Check it out.
Ge 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Ge 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Ge 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
To Abraham God began to reveal the great "I am" of scripture. Remember, this is the word of the LORD, the Lord GOD, Adonay Jehovah
I think this chapter I am getting ready to quote is an amazing chapter that talks about inspiration. See what you think.
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit (soul) in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
11 Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
12 Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:
13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.
14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches.
15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.
16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more)
17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.
18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles.
20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer.
21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
Do you think V 8 is an eternal truth? What if we did not have a perfect Bible that has the inspiration and the answers? What then?
Do these two verses (2 Timothy 3:16 and Job 32:8) use the same original-language word in the same exact sense concerning the same exact subject that would indicate that they should be considered real parallel passages? Henry A. Virkler noted: “It is important, though, to distinguish between verbal parallels and real parallels. Verbal parallels are those that use similar words but are discussing different ideas (the similarity is more verbal than real)” (Christian’s Guide to Critical Thinking, p. 38). Henry Virkler observed: “Real parallels are those that speak of the same idea or same event” (Ibid.). James Sire asserted: “When two or more unrelated texts are treated as if they belonged together, we have the fallacy of collapsing contexts” (Scripture Twisting, p. 58). James Sire defined and explained the reading error collapsing contexts as follows: “two or more verses which have little or nothing to do with each other are put together as if one were a commentary on the other(s)” (p. 156). James Sire noted: “If two or more texts talk about the same subject in a similar way, then when we study them together we are not collapsing the contexts” (p. 62).
Does the use of the same English word “inspiration” to translate two different words in two different verses in different contexts prove that these two verses are real parallels both about the same subject or idea--the giving of the Scriptures by inspiration to the prophets and apostles? Is it clearly demonstrated that the assertion (Job 32:8) made by Elihu would be the first mention of the same subject of the giving of the Scriptures as the verse in 2 Timothy 3:16 is?
KJV defender David Sorenson asserted: “The only place in the Bible where the word inspiration appears in the context of Scripture is 2 Timothy 3:16” (God’s Perfect Book, p. 43). In a footnote, David Sorenson noted: “The word inspiration also appears in Job 32:8, but the context there clearly is not of Scripture, but of a man’s spirit being inspired or enlightened by God” (Ibid.). KJV-only author D. A. Waite acknowledged that the word ‘inspiration’ “is used once in the Old Testament (Job 32:8) in a different sense” (Fundamentalist Mis-Information, p. 45). KJV-only author Phil Stringer claimed: “The word inspiration did not exist before God invented it for the New Testament” (Unbroken Bible, p. 60).
Does Elihu actually define the meaning of inspiration at 2 Timothy 3:16? Would a possibly more obscure or less clear use of an English word be properly considered the key to understanding a clearer use of that same word? Has it been soundly demonstrated that the Hebrew noun used in Job 32:8 has the exact, same meaning as the Greek adjective used in 2 Timothy 3:16? The Greek adjective at 2 Timothy 3:16 is actually translated in the KJV by five words [“given by inspiration of God”], not by one word [inspiration]. How would this adjectival participial phrase [“given by inspiration of God”] be identical to a noun? Do these KJV-only authors avoid sound consideration of how the same Hebrew word translated “inspiration” at Job 32:8 is translated in over twenty other verses in the KJV’s Old Testament? Could any of the other verses where the same Hebrew word is used contribute to understanding its use at Job 32:8? Does Job 33:4 where Elihu used the same Hebrew word again and where it is translated “breath” support the new KJV-only interpretation of Job 32:8? Would presenting one result of “the inspiration of the Almighty” [“giveth them understanding”] actually provide Elihu’s clear and complete definition of it? Even if it supposedly was Elihu’s definition, does that prove it to be God’s definition?
Are all the words stated by Job’s three friends and Elihu identified as being revelation directly from God or are all their words recorded by inspiration of God as they had stated them regardless of whether they were right or wrong in some of them? Do the Scripture anywhere identify Elihu as being a true prophet of God who was given direct revelation from God? J. C. Ryle observed: “We are nowhere told that either Job or Eliphaz and his companions spoke all that they spoke by the Holy Ghost. The writer of the book of Job was thoroughly inspired to record all they said. But whether they spoke rightly or wrongly is to be decided by the general teaching of Scripture” (Old Paths, p. 28).
Is Job 32:8 proven soundly to be the indisputable key to understanding 2 Timothy 3:16 as a few KJV-only authors allege? Do these few KJV-only authors soundly or truly prove their opinion that Job 32:8 presents the “definitive statement on inspiration” of the Scriptures to be true? Do these few KJV-only authors attempt to take one isolated verse (Job 32:8) out of its own context in order to use it as a pretext for their preconceived human KJV-only reasoning? Could this appeal to one isolated verse (Job 32:8) be a possible effort to avoid an actual verse that does directly relate or is parallel to 2 Timothy 3:16—2 Peter 1:21?
Does the use of the same English word “inspiration” to translate two different words in two different verses in different contexts prove that these two verses are real parallels both about the same subject or idea--the giving of the Scriptures by inspiration to the prophets and apostles? Is it clearly demonstrated that the assertion (Job 32:8) made by Elihu would be the first mention of the same subject of the giving of the Scriptures as the verse in 2 Timothy 3:16 is?
KJV defender David Sorenson asserted: “The only place in the Bible where the word inspiration appears in the context of Scripture is 2 Timothy 3:16” (God’s Perfect Book, p. 43). In a footnote, David Sorenson noted: “The word inspiration also appears in Job 32:8, but the context there clearly is not of Scripture, but of a man’s spirit being inspired or enlightened by God” (Ibid.). KJV-only author D. A. Waite acknowledged that the word ‘inspiration’ “is used once in the Old Testament (Job 32:8) in a different sense” (Fundamentalist Mis-Information, p. 45). KJV-only author Phil Stringer claimed: “The word inspiration did not exist before God invented it for the New Testament” (Unbroken Bible, p. 60).
Does Elihu actually define the meaning of inspiration at 2 Timothy 3:16? Would a possibly more obscure or less clear use of an English word be properly considered the key to understanding a clearer use of that same word? Has it been soundly demonstrated that the Hebrew noun used in Job 32:8 has the exact, same meaning as the Greek adjective used in 2 Timothy 3:16? The Greek adjective at 2 Timothy 3:16 is actually translated in the KJV by five words [“given by inspiration of God”], not by one word [inspiration]. How would this adjectival participial phrase [“given by inspiration of God”] be identical to a noun? Do these KJV-only authors avoid sound consideration of how the same Hebrew word translated “inspiration” at Job 32:8 is translated in over twenty other verses in the KJV’s Old Testament? Could any of the other verses where the same Hebrew word is used contribute to understanding its use at Job 32:8? Does Job 33:4 where Elihu used the same Hebrew word again and where it is translated “breath” support the new KJV-only interpretation of Job 32:8? Would presenting one result of “the inspiration of the Almighty” [“giveth them understanding”] actually provide Elihu’s clear and complete definition of it? Even if it supposedly was Elihu’s definition, does that prove it to be God’s definition?
Are all the words stated by Job’s three friends and Elihu identified as being revelation directly from God or are all their words recorded by inspiration of God as they had stated them regardless of whether they were right or wrong in some of them? Do the Scripture anywhere identify Elihu as being a true prophet of God who was given direct revelation from God? J. C. Ryle observed: “We are nowhere told that either Job or Eliphaz and his companions spoke all that they spoke by the Holy Ghost. The writer of the book of Job was thoroughly inspired to record all they said. But whether they spoke rightly or wrongly is to be decided by the general teaching of Scripture” (Old Paths, p. 28).
Is Job 32:8 proven soundly to be the indisputable key to understanding 2 Timothy 3:16 as a few KJV-only authors allege? Do these few KJV-only authors soundly or truly prove their opinion that Job 32:8 presents the “definitive statement on inspiration” of the Scriptures to be true? Do these few KJV-only authors attempt to take one isolated verse (Job 32:8) out of its own context in order to use it as a pretext for their preconceived human KJV-only reasoning? Could this appeal to one isolated verse (Job 32:8) be a possible effort to avoid an actual verse that does directly relate or is parallel to 2 Timothy 3:16—2 Peter 1:21?
Personally I would not link Job 32:8 with 2 Tim 3:16 at all just because of the word "inspiration." I certainly did not in my last post. As I have pointed out already there was not a Bible written before Moses wrote Genesis some 2500 years after the creation. No one can be sure when the book of Job was written or who wrote it. Perhaps it was Elihu. We do not have inspiration because there is a Bible, we have a Bible because of inspiration. Inspiration preceded Bibles by a long time. The opinion of Elihu is that God's inspiration is to give knowledge of himself and his ways.
8 But there is a spirit (soul) in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
I prefaced my remarks by showing that Abraham advanced the knowledge of God in a three-fold way beginning in Ge 15.
1) He introduce us to the visual appearance of the "word of the LORD" showing us that he was a person.
2) He introduced us to the name of the word of the LORD, Adonay Jehovah
3) We have the first time the "I am" is mentioned.
1. I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. Ge 15:1
2. I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Ge 15:7
3) I am the Almighty God; Ge 17:1
The LORD who is appearing to him is not a lesser God.
Some serious inspiration of new knowledge is taking place beginning with Gen 15.
When 2nd Timothy was penned almost all that God was going to record had been written. What Paul said to him in that letter concerning inspiration was prefaced by this:
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Note: I am guessing that one method will be to write 150 new Bibles in the English language and every change will declare them to be prophets with new knowledge while admitting the word of the Lord didn't have anything to do with them.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I would like to remind you that having access to the holy Scriptures from a child did not convert Timothy.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
How is it true that Timothy is Paul's son in the faith.
Consider this;
1 Cor 2:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
You can have as many Bibles as you want, but the power to save people is in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
The inspired scriptures are for this reason:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
The NT believers were saved by the preachers before the scriptures were written. That is just a fact.
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