Verse 13 is a fact. Your interpretation is not a fact. Its a fact because you say so? Any scholar who disagrees with you is wrong?
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Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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Fascinating. Could you provide us some words from this language?
I have.
I will say that I believe that a tremendous amount of what happens in many "tongue" talking churches is 100% out of order. Chaos, distraction, and confusion. Not at all in line with Paul's instruction for use of the gifts.
No interpretation. I just quoted what it said. It either means what it says or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean what it says it is not the word of God.
Then you need to rethink your conclusion in light of the word of God.
So the present Jesus is only the "partial" Jesus? What, exactly, do you think Jesus is lacking before He, sometime in the future, becomes "perfect?"
You are aware, are you not, that the word translated "perfect" means "complete," right? And that the Greek grammar demands that "partial" ("in part") and "complete" have to refer to the same antecedent, right?
And you are aware that there is no reference to Jesus in the preceding context? Right?
It's bible. Accept it or reject it. Your choice.
We'll continue to disagree. Nothing in the passage speaks to the canon of scripture.
In verse 12, Paul says that all he knew was incomplete, but then (when he met Christ) he would know completely.
The perfect is Christ. When we meet Christ we will know what we presently don't know. There will be no need for prophecy or tongues. Jesus will be present and perfect.
1 Corinthians 13:7-13
[7]Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
[8]Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!
[9]Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!
[10]But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
[11]When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.
[12]Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
[13]Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
You interpreted its time. Did it occur or will it occur is your interpretation.
Do you know all things? Do you see face to face?
13:10-12 "When Paul wrote of “full understanding,” he was referring to when we must see Christ face to face. God gives believers spiritual gifts for their lives on earth in order to build up, serve, and strengthen fellow Christians. The spiritual gifts are for the church. In eternity, we will be made perfect and complete and will be in the very presence of God. We will no longer need the spiritual gifts, so they will come to an end. Then, we will have a full understanding and appreciation for one another as unique expressions of God’s infinite creativity. We will use our differences as a reason to praise God! Based on that perspective, let us treat each other with the same love and unity that we will one day share."
(Life application Study Bible)
Yes. When I look into the perfect law of liberty I see myself as if face to face in a mirror. Just as the bible says.
When Paul said "Now" what part of that word didn't you understand?
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13:10 The perfect refers to the next age, the eternal age when the Messiah reigns."
(Holman KJV study Bible)
"13:10 when that which is perfect has come: The Greek word for perfect means “end” or “completion.” Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things (see v. 12). But some have interpreted perfect as referring to the completion of the NT canon."
(NKJV study Bible)
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Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(13) And now abideth . . .—Better, Thus there abide . . . The “now” is not here temporal, but logical. It is not “now” (i.e.,this present life) contrasted with the future, but it is the conclusion of the whole argument. From all that has been urged in the previous verses it follows that these three graces—faith, hope, love—remain imperishable and immortal. Gifts such as the Corinthian Church rejoiced in shall pass away when the perfect succeeds the imperfect; the graces of faith, hope, love shall remain in the next life, exalted and purified. But even in this trinity of graces there is an order, and love stands first. The contrast is not between love which is imperishable and faith and hope which are perishable, but between ephemeral gifts and enduring graces. It is strange how completely in popular thinking this has been lost sight of, and hence we find such words as these—
“Faith will vanish into sight,
Hope be emptied in delight,
Love in heaven will shine more bright,
Therefore give us love;”
which express almost the opposite of what the Apostle really wrote.
There need be no difficulty in understanding that “faith,” in the sense of trust in Christ as our Saviour, may continue in the heavenly state; indeed, when we see Him face to face, and see actually how great a salvation He hath obtained for us, that faith may’ be expected to glow with a new and increasing fervour Hope, too, need never cease if that new life is to be progressive. If hope lives by feeding on the present as the promise of the future, surely it will have a more abundant sustenance in that life than in this. Yet love stands supreme; indeed, both faith and hope would perish without her. (See Matthew 26:35; Galatians 5:6.)"
OK, I have a long history with this fiasco of a doctrine called the "the modern gift of tongues."
First of all, almost every church I have ever gone to that uses a prayer language does so in a chaotic way with no interpretation. Both squarely against the bible.
As to those like myself, back when, that used a prayer language and knew what the bible demanded and knew to enforce it. I have a long story I'll try and make short.
To the point, I believe my previous gift of tongues and probably all gifts of tongues nowadays are in fact a counterfeit gift given by the spirit of the antichrist.
I say this because I used to be a charismatic who prophesied and spoke in tongues.
Both "gifts" tempted me greatly by feeding my sense of uniqueness and self-importance, my arrogance. I would realize through this message board that I was speaking prophecy and tongues with a spirit not of the Holy Spirit. A spirit that would seize my body and speak through me like a rag doll, I do have verbal tics and Tourrette's Syndrome, though, so I want to make clear that it wasn't natural. It was not rhythmic, repetitive tics or standard obsessive-compulsive behavior but was one time "revelations" that seemed ingenious and sometimes predicted the future accurately. I have even kept some of my so called "prophecy" to this day to show what it was.
I determined from this message board to comb through the bible and apply it literally to everything Pentecostal or Charismatic. My counterfeit gift of tongues had grown immensely, as I spoke in faith to the point most of my communication in tongues was through original music towards the end. This kept me hooked for a little while, but I now know it is a temptation.
I stopped all of this because by reading the bible, I realized that the spirit communicating through me with both tongues and prophecies was certainly not the Holy Spirit of the bible. To the point, when I stopped prophesying, suddenly my gift of tongues vanished, I grew far more humble, I embraced God like never before, I never felt a "fire in my bones" like Jeremiah felt to prophesy or speak in tongues. However, I have erased thousands of lines of "prophecy" and many recordings of tongues and recordings of prophecy. Now, I am free of the curse of modern tongues and the so called Charismatic or Pentecostal Movements and I can worship the Lord in truth.
First of all, almost every church I have ever gone to that uses a prayer language does so in a chaotic way with no interpretation. Both squarely against the bible.
As to those like myself, back when, that used a prayer language and knew what the bible demanded and knew to enforce it. I have a long story I'll try and make short.
To the point, I believe my previous gift of tongues and probably all gifts of tongues nowadays are in fact a counterfeit gift given by the spirit of the antichrist.
I say this because I used to be a charismatic who prophesied and spoke in tongues.
Both "gifts" tempted me greatly by feeding my sense of uniqueness and self-importance, my arrogance. I would realize through this message board that I was speaking prophecy and tongues with a spirit not of the Holy Spirit. A spirit that would seize my body and speak through me like a rag doll, I do have verbal tics and Tourrette's Syndrome, though, so I want to make clear that it wasn't natural. It was not rhythmic, repetitive tics or standard obsessive-compulsive behavior but was one time "revelations" that seemed ingenious and sometimes predicted the future accurately. I have even kept some of my so called "prophecy" to this day to show what it was.
I determined from this message board to comb through the bible and apply it literally to everything Pentecostal or Charismatic. My counterfeit gift of tongues had grown immensely, as I spoke in faith to the point most of my communication in tongues was through original music towards the end. This kept me hooked for a little while, but I now know it is a temptation.
I stopped all of this because by reading the bible, I realized that the spirit communicating through me with both tongues and prophecies was certainly not the Holy Spirit of the bible. To the point, when I stopped prophesying, suddenly my gift of tongues vanished, I grew far more humble, I embraced God like never before, I never felt a "fire in my bones" like Jeremiah felt to prophesy or speak in tongues. However, I have erased thousands of lines of "prophecy" and many recordings of tongues and recordings of prophecy. Now, I am free of the curse of modern tongues and the so called Charismatic or Pentecostal Movements and I can worship the Lord in truth.
νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη.
νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.
Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "
νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.
Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "
Thanks for your honesty brother.
Are you insinuating that English is the language of choice for God? He confounded languages of man. And not all of us speak English!
Paul may have spoken in tongues. I am sure he was trying to rid the church of the in fighting, when he said what he said!
Were you there to know this as a fact?
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