Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?

[MennoSota]

I reject Piper and Grudem outright.....Piper just leaves the door open which as far as I can tell lets people be subject to chasing nonsensical false fleshly make believe.
youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video


"He himself does not claim any such gift.
It is safe to say...well God can do what he wants to do as if we could limit Him by not leaving an open door.
God has already declared we are not to add or take away from that which was once for all delievered to the saints.

No one is adding new theology to God or adding a new revelation. Prophecy does not always entail future telling.
I acknowledge your view, but respectfully disagree.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do those who have never had the Bible have the complete word of God in their hands? Can a missionary get to them and share God's complete word if they don't know the language and don't have a Bible in that language?
I cannot dismiss God's Spirit using the gift of tongues to tell them of Jesus nor can I dismiss God using dreams to give them a knowledge of His Son. To put chains on God's Spirit because I personally have added an interpretation to Paul's writing that he doesn't express is something I refuse to do.
What I accept is that Jesus is perfect and when he returns we will no longer need the gifts of tongues and prophecy.

There have been millions who lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus...
The same God who confounded the languages at the tower of Babel is well aware of where His elect sheep are,and He will reach them through the means He has ordained.....you know....effectual calling

 

[Iconoclast]

No one is adding new theology to God or adding a new revelation. Prophecy does not always entail future telling.
I acknowledge your view, but respectfully disagree.

I understand we differ.....but respectfully, any new word, tongue or anything that comes from God would indeed be new revelation.
I am sitting here in OHIO...if I was given a direct word from God we could write it down as it would be the word of God.

 

[MennoSota]

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

No one, that I know of, would accept the holy laughter movement or any such behaviors as being biblical. But, we're not discussing wacky, Prophets of Zwickau, heresy. We are looking at God’s word as it relates to the gift of tongues and discerning whether God's gift of tongues has ceased in entirety. God's word does not say that tongues have ceased today. God's word says tongues will cease when the perfect comes. Perfect is not the canon.

 

[righteousdude2]

The practice of tongues is foreign to my experience and I have a couple of questions (on a serious, not a sarcastic, note).

When you pray in a “prayer language”, do you understand what is prayed? If so, what benefit is the language? If not, what benefit is the prayer?

I guess the scripture is in err? Paul said, when we can't put into words our thoughts and needs, the Holy Ghost does that for us!???

 

[MennoSota]

There have been millions who lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus...
The same God who confounded the languages at the tower of Babel is well aware of where His elect sheep are,and He will reach them through the means He has ordained.....you know....effectual calling

I do not disagree with you.
The same God used tongues to reach unreached peoples. He, by His Sovereign will can use tongues today. It is His will that decides where, when and upon whom He will give His gifts.

 

[MennoSota]

I understand we differ.....but respectfully, any new word, tongue or anything that comes from God would indeed be new revelation.
I am sitting here in OHIO...if I was given a direct word from God we could write it down as it would be the word of God.

Not in the same sense as the apostles. If that were so, why aren't the prophecies of Phillips daughters provided to us? Or those who prophesied to Timothy?
Prophecy does not have to be canonical.

 

[righteousdude2]

I reject Piper and Grudem outright.....Piper just leaves the door open which as far as I can tell lets people be subject to chasing nonsensical false fleshly make believe.
youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video


"He himself does not claim any such gift.
It is safe to say...well God can do what he wants to do as if we could limit Him by not leaving an open door.
God has already declared we are not to add or take away from that which was once for all delievered to the saints.

ICON, since I ignore you, I forgot that you are still around. I already know your opinions and views, but I am asking how you are, and that special need I have been praying for you for? It's been a while, so, hopefully the need was met! Are you still driving? Be safe, there are idiots on the road, but you know that better then me! God bless!

 

[righteousdude2]

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

I hoped you were better than this? You know any serious charismatic denies and rebukes the Toronto blessing! This is low, even for you! LOL!

 

[JonC]

I guess the scripture is in err? Paul said, when we can't put into words our thoughts and needs, the Holy Ghost does that for us!???

Why would you guess the scripture in err?

I asked if you understood what was prayed. I asked if so, then what is the benefit of using another language. I asked if not, then what is the benefit of the prayer.Judging from your response the answer is "no", you don't understand what is being prayed. So my follow up question is what, in your view, is the benefit of the prayer?

 

[righteousdude2]

When I became a Christian (1979) I attended an Assembly of God church in Harrison, NJ. A "prophetess" came to speak and baptize people in the Holy Spirit (the second blessing), accompanied by receiving the "gift of tongues". Forget for a moment that Eph. 1:3 tells us that we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, in Christ, ergo we lack nothing for the practice of our Christian faith. Intuitively I knew that there was something wrong praying in an unintelligible language that my mind did not understand. Even though I was a new Christian, I understood plainly from the Bible that tongues was speaking a known language you did not previously know. As I matured as a believer I was taught hermeneutical principles by a godly pastor. He taught me that when there is one plain, normative passage on a matter, and one vague passage on the same matter, interpret that vague passage through the plain, normative passage. Acts 2 is the plain, normative passage on tongues. The tongues spoken on the day of Pentecost were known languages. The tongues spoken in 1 Corinthians 14 are vague. Is it an ecstatic language? Is it a known language? Christians on both sides argue. The plain, normative text in Acts 2 adds clarity.

Another a problem with a private prayer language is that a) there is no interpreter b) there is no warrant in scripture to pray in such a manner c) Rom. 8:26 is grossly ripped out of context by Continualists d) there is no benefit to praying in a private prayer language that your own native tongue cannot provide. When Paul wrote " In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;" (Rom. 8:26), he was simply saying that because of our sin and human frailty, we sometimes do not even know what to pray. I have been like this when broken by my sin and have experienced something profoundly emotional. God knows our heart even when we do not know what to say.

Back to that "prophetess". I was told that Christians who receive the second blessing and speak in tongues are closer to God. They have something that other Christians do not. I understood that this created a caste system within the church. Verbalized or not, there was this reality that "I have something you do not." When I came to that realization I left charismania.

Even I don't agree with these wide open practices of inviting people to come up in mass and be baptized in the Spirit and receive gifts. I have been in one of those invites, and I saw through what they were doing. Usually, a person who receives the prayer language gift, receives it privately, most often while praying, without the assistance of another person.

THERE IS NOT NOW, OR NEVER HAS BEEN A NEED FOR A SECOND BLESSING!

Good points made, brother, but, it doesn't mean all of us who pray in tongues, buy into the teaching you have presented. God bless!

 

[righteousdude2]

Why would you guess the scripture in err?

I asked if you understood what was prayed. I asked if so, then what is the benefit of using another language. I asked if not, then what is the benefit of the prayer.Judging from your response the answer is "no", you don't understand what is being prayed. So my follow up question is what, in your view, is the benefit of the prayer?

If the word says the Spirit takes our prayers to God for us, then I would assume, you may not, but I do, that God understands what is coming from my heart and lips! All my needs have ALWAYS been met, and quite abundantly at that! If you have to ask these questions, you will never understand until you experience the gift.

I used to be a skeptic like you. Like Paul, I spoke out considerably and went around crucifying tongue talkers. I still don't accept tongues, but prayer language I can't deny! God speed to you bro!

Oh, no I don't interpret my own prayer language. I TRUST and have FAITH in the scripture, that the Spirit does that interpreting for me on MY behalf! hope that answers your question!

 

[TCassidy]

TC, you are twisting words and making things up as you go in this post.
I respect your right to think Paul was talking about the canon in chapter 13. I consider your view to be incorrect and I accept the views of others who are equal or superior to you in understanding greek and intellectual knowledge.
At this point you are coming across as prideful.

And you keep changing what I say from "revelation" to "canon." That is dishonest. The word "canon" does not appear in the bible. The word "revelation" does.

So, try real hard to be honest. When the complete revelation comes the partial revelation will pass away.

That is God's word. In context. I accept it. You reject it. So be it. End of discussion.

 

[Reformed]

Even I don't agree with these wide open practices of inviting people to come up in mass and be baptized in the Spirit and receive gifts. I have been in one of those invites, and I saw through what they were doing. Usually, a person who receives the prayer language gift, receives it privately, most often while praying, without the assistance of another person.

THERE IS NOT NOW, OR NEVER HAS BEEN A NEED FOR A SECOND BLESSING!

Good points made, brother, but, it doesn't mean all of us who pray in tongues, buy into the teaching you have presented. God bless!

I do not expect anyone to buy into anything I share. But when it comes to modern day tongues the onus is on the Continualist to prove that the gift still exists and that it is a private prayer language.

 

[TCassidy]

Can a missionary get to them and share God's complete word if they don't know the language and don't have a Bible in that language?

Ask John of Japan. He learned Japanese then translated the bible into Japanese. No Crazymatic shortcuts. But rather obedient to God's command, "Study to show yourself approved unto God."

 

[JonC]

If the word says the Spirit takes our prayers to God for us, then I would assume, you may not, but I do, that God understands what is coming from my heart and lips! All my needs have ALWAYS been met, and quite abundantly at that! If you have to ask these questions, you will never understand until you experience the gift.

I used to be a skeptic like you. Like Paul, I spoke out considerably and went around crucifying tongue talkers. I still don't accept tongues, but prayer language I can't deny! God speed to you bro!

Oh, no I don't interpret my own prayer language. I TRUST and have FAITH in the scripture, that the Spirit does that interpreting for me on MY behalf! hope that answers your question!

As I have said, I've never experienced speaking in tongues but I have experienced the gift you describe of the interceding work of the Spirit.

I've never said I was a skeptic. I said that I never spoke in tongues. There is a difference. Why, earlier in your life, did you feel the need to be hostile to those who "spoke in tongues"?

Thank you for your answers. I suppose in a way you have answered my question. I am left with the notion that the benefit you derive from praying in tongues is the same benefit I derive without the tongues part.

 

[MennoSota]

And you keep changing what I say from "revelation" to "canon." That is dishonest. The word "canon" does not appear in the bible. The word "revelation" does.

So, try real hard to be honest. When the complete revelation comes the partial revelation will pass away.

That is God's word. In context. I accept it. You reject it. So be it. End of discussion.

The complete revelation is Jesus, not the Bible. The Bible is God's word for the present, but Jesus is God, the Word, himself. As wonderful as the Bible is, we worship the Word, Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

Ask John of Japan. He learned Japanese then translated the bible into Japanese. No Crazymatic shortcuts. But rather obedient to God's command, "Study to show yourself approved unto God."

Your last words have nothing to do with whether the gift of tongues is given by God today.

 

[MennoSota]

I do not expect anyone to buy into anything I share. But when it comes to modern day tongues the onus is on the Continualist to prove that the gift still exists and that it is a private prayer language.

Testimony from missionaries says God still uses tongues on the front lines.
I will not defend tongues as a prayer language.

 

[TCassidy]

I guess the scripture is in err?

No, you do.

Paul said, when we can't put into words our thoughts and needs, the Holy Ghost does that for us!???

Yes, groaning which CANNOT be uttered. Not jibber jabber where you don't have a clue what you are saying. You could be praying that all your loved ones get cancer for all you know! If you can understand it you don't need it, if you can't understand it does not edify you. Take Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians 14:19 I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in another language.

 

[TCassidy]

The complete revelation is Jesus, not the Bible.

Show me "Jesus" in the context. And now you deny revelation. This just keeps getting worse and worse.