Is the rapture a relatively new idea of christians?

[Brother Bob]

Ed;
And the Latin Vulgate was written by;
in 382 AD the great scholar Jerome began translating the Bible into the Latin language. It took him 25 years. The result was the Vulgate Bible.

So if you want rapture you will have to go to Italy. lol

That isn't the only meaning of rapture.
Come on, tell us what you are against. Thank you.

I am not against anything. I too believe Christ will come and we will meet Him in the air. I also believe He will pass

judgement on the world of unbelievers and satan, those who work abomination and those who make a lie. I believe Heaven is

up. I don't believe its on this earth but I believe it is where God is and I intend to go there someday.

The greatest thing we all differ on is I believe the 1000 years is in past tense. It says they "lived" and they "reigned" for a

1000 years. It also says it was just the "souls" that lived and reigned and not the whole body. It also say the "rest" of the

dead lived not again until the 1000 years was completed or fulfilled and then satan was loosed for a "little" season. If satan is

not loosed now then we sure are in for some trouble down the road.

I do not believe in all these happenings at the end of time. I think it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He come in the

"rapture" as you call it and I call the resurrection. I think that is the hour when ALL that are in the grave will come forth and

unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation. I

think the Lord will receive His church and pass judgement on the world. amen,

One thing for sure, whether its your way or mine we won't know a thing about it for we will be gone. I got a mansion and its

over in Heaven and guess what, its next door to Jesus regardless of how many get there and my prayer is that all make it but

unfortantly, they will not. bless,

BTW, I have no qualms that anyone calls it the "rapture". When I became a Christian I kept hearing the word and wondered where did it come from?

I am looking for a lot of feed back on this one but I will try to respond the best I can. What do I think will happen when we are resurrected to Heaven? I think the seven vials of the wrath of God will begin to pour out and the silence in Heaven for half an hour and the smoke and incense coming out of the Kingdom and no one allowed to enter until the wrath has been poured out. That is why I think it will be a quick work. The seventh vial, the seventh trumphet Heaven will speak and say "it is finished". I think the earth will pass away with a great noise, but I won't hear it, nor you.

I try to line everything up with what Jesus said and keep referring back and forth from the Gospels to Revelation and I find where Jesus never even mentioned any of those things I hear advocated on here but He speaks as I do of a very quick work He will do. The most important thing I will tell you all that I teach at our church. If I am wrong and there is a 1000 years to repent again then all well and good but lets say if I am right that it is past and when you die that is it!!! as Jesus said; ever how death find you so shall the resurrection receive you. So, if I am right and some have taught their children if they don't repent here they will get another chance and they settle down on that and don't repent here then the scripture come to bear the blind will lead the blind. It will be too late for them if I am right, so I teach; Make it as sure as you can, repent now! while you know you got life and opportunity and be saved for sure. Don't wait on something that just might not come. amen,

So, there Ed, LeBuick and Bob, I let it all hang out. Hit me. I hope when you judge me that you will at least see this is not a one night thing. There are years behind this and of course this is not all of Rev.

 

[Ed Edwards]

LeBuick:

I have always had trouble with this portion of the rapture theory;

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is supposedly where the Church is raptured but it really appears this is when John was taken to heaven.

Which part of TYPE are you having trouble with???

TaterTot: //It is true that the early church did not teach
our modern day concept of "the rapture". //

For the first 1,934 years of the Church (until 1964) it was
considered that Revelation told of a God who would whup it
on unrepentant sinners some day. 1964 was the year that
finally man could, using thermonuclear weapons (AKA: H-bombs)
could destroy all human life on earth (maybe all life
on earth?). Now we can see that God must interfeere in
the affairs of mankind to KEEP THEM FROM SELF DESTRUCTION.

Yes, the early chruch did NOT teach the modern day
concept of 'the rapture'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed;
And the Latin Vulgate was written by;
in 382 AD the great scholar Jerome began translating the Bible into the Latin language. It took him 25 years. The result was the Vulgate Bible.

So if you want rapture you will have to go to Italy. lol

Tee Hee

Thank you Brother Brother Bob for helping me remember
these details. So it looks like the Latin Vulgate Bible dates
from 407AD.

 

[LeBuick]

If I am wrong and there is a 1000 years to repent again then all well and good but lets say if I am right that it is past and when you die that is it!!! as Jesus said; ever how death find you so shall the resurrection receive you. So, if I am right and some have taught their children if they don't repent here they will get another chance and they settle down on that and don't repent here then the scripture come to bear the blind will lead the blind. It will be too late for them if I am right, so I teach; Make it as sure as you can, repent now! while you know you got life and opportunity and be saved for sure. Don't wait on something that just might not come. amen.

I am not 100% in agreement with your theory but it is on points that can't be proven otherwise, just argued. I do believe there will be a last time to receive the Gospel and repent which will be offered to the living and the dead.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks LeBuick;
I believe preaching is from Heaven and we are just the instruments. I also believe we are being judged every day of our lives as we live now.
I can't get away from Jesus saying "if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come".

I do thank you for your comments though, for it is a deep subject and many veiws. I think we almost all are in agreement with up till the resurrection or "rapture" as some call it.

 

[LeBuick]

I also believe we are being judged every day of our lives as we live now.
I can't get away from Jesus saying "if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come".

Which death? Could he be referring to the second death? Yes, we are judged but for the saints it is just for rewards. Might be cool to have a pastoring crown in the kingdom, it might get us a seat closer to the front instead of over by the harps.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The idea of the rapture and it's name is at least 1,526 years old.
While this is recent compared to the age of the dinosauurs,
aledged to have been 62 Million years ago, I dare say most
people on this board will say IT IS NOT a new idea

What such a false statement. The word is found in the Latin Vulgate. The IDEA never surfaced as Brother Bob contended. Furthermore most of you are Anti-Catholic here, so why are you taking scripture from the Latin Vulgate?

 

[BobRyan]

Brother BobRyan, you have argued the 'one and only one
resurrection of both the just and the unjust' doctrine under
the table.

WhaHUH???

I argue for ONE resurrection - the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:4-5 that happens at the start of the millennium. The ONE of the "Holy And Just" the ONE that is also mentioned in 1thess 4 of "the DEAD in Christ" - ONE and the SAME. The resurrection of the just. The resurrection of the Righteous.

OVER THESE the second death has NO power.

That would be zero wicked - and only the righteous - in the FIRST resurrection.

Then the SECOND resurrection happens at the end of the actual 1000 years. Where "the REST of the dead" are raised.

In Rev 20:4-5 we are told explicitly about the FIRST resurrection - it is the ONE in which those who are raised have totally escaped all condemnation of the "Second death" -- which is the death owed for the wages of sin. "Over THESE the second death has NO power".

But yet, My 7th-Day-Adventist Brother, you mistake
FIRST with FIRST AND ONLY.

I say there are TWO resurrections in Rev 20. One of the JUST at the START of the 1000 years and one of the unjust "those over whom the SECOND death DOES have power" at the end of the 1000 years.

How can that be "First and ONLY resurrection in all of time?"

Have we been having this discussion so long and this point has not come across?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, the early church did NOT teach the modern day
concept of 'the rapture'.

True - the early church DID teach what is effectively "rapture" in 1Thess 4 as the saints being caught up in the air - and being taken to "My Father's House" the place in heaven where God's Throne is and where "I have prepared a place for you".

What they did NOT teach is that this is something other than the "coming of Christ" other than "the return of Christ" other than "I will come again and receive you unto Myself" other than "the revelation of Jesus Christ in flaming fire" at the last trump, the shout of the Archangel -- the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

The way you garble the sequence in Matt 24 -- starting with vs 4-15 then LEAPING up to vs 31-44 then LEAPING back to vs 21-30 so that you can insert the fabricated sequence of man-made tradition INSTEAD of the sequence presented in the text is "instructive" for the reader.

My approach was to LEAVE the sequence EXACTLY as is stated in MAtt 24 and to claim "THIS is the timeline sequence presented in Matt 24".

You make the same claim only you garble the sequence - and admit to it.

How in the world can that be satisfying for you to claim that Matt is GIVING your much needed sequence while effectly admitting in your arrangement "he does NOT" (at least for the careful reader)??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //The way you garble the sequence in Matt 24 -- starting
with vs 4-15 then LEAPING up to vs 31-44 then LEAPING
back to vs 21-30 so that you can insert
the fabricated sequence of man-made tradition
INSTEAD of the sequence presented in the text
is "instructive" for the reader.//

Wait, what is this YOU GARBLE?
I used the outline provided in Matthew 24:3.
I'm letting the Bible help me understand the Bible.
BTW, there is no 'the fabricated sequence of man-made tradition'
I didn't find this in any pretribulation rapture book (especially
by millionare LEFT BEHIND authors), I didn't find this doctrine
in an Premillennial Theology book, I didn't find this teaching
on TV anwhere, I didn't find this doctrine in the books of
Ellen White, I didn't find this teaching in any dispensational theology
book. I found this understanding of of Matthew 24:25 (and
the parallel passages about the Mount Olivet Discourse [ mod ]
in Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //I argue for ONE resurrection - the FIRST resurrection
in Rev 20:4-5 that happens at the start of the millennium.//

Yes, and that is exactly the concept i've debated under
the table with many Bible proofs (I've got more, you know).
The multiple resurrection/rapture event
sumarized as 'the First Resurrection' ENDS at the beginning of a
physical/literal Millennial Messanic Kingdom (MMK).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //It will be too late for them if I am right, so I teach; Make it as sure as you can, repent now! while you know you got life and opportunity and be saved for sure. Don't wait on something that just might not come. amen,//

Amen, Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:

The purpose of Eschatology must always be to enhanse
our Christ-like serve.

2Pe 3:10-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe
in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away
with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with
feruent heate, the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.
11 Seeing then that all these things shal
be dissolued, What maner of persons ought
ye to be in all holy conuersation, and godlinesse,
12 Looking for and hasting vnto the comming
of the day of God, wherein the heauens
being on fire shalbe dissolued, and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //The greatest thing we all differ on is I believe
the 1000 years is in past tense. It says they "lived" and
they "reigned" for a 1000 years. //

It is common in prophetic passages to use past tense.
For what God intends in the future to do, we human beans
can count as already DONE.

Other things we need to remember about prophetic passages:

hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
month = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time
1,000 years = the appropriate time

Other factors of God's Economy (AKA: dispensation):

The blind see
The lame dance like deer
The deaf hear the last trumpet (loud enough to wake the dead)
The poor are Rich
The rich are made low
The meek inherit the earth
etc.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, Christ was the firstfruits of them that slept and many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose and went into that Holy City and were seen of many, which I believe to be the First resurrection. That is why it says "blessed and Holy is he that hath a part in the First Resurrection (who hath a part in Jesus Christ) I believe there will be a General Resurrection at the end of the Tribulations, when all that are in the grave shall come forth and unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation. I believe there is only one more resurrection to come and that is when Jesus will come in the clouds of Glory at the end of Tribulations and before the wrath to receive His church and pass judgement on the world and satan.

I wonder why he said "in my Father's house are many mansions and if it were not so I would of told you, I go AWAY to prepare a place for you and I will come again to receive you unto my self that where I am, THERE you may be also. And when He left here He ascended upward to sit down on the right hand of the Father and became our High Priest for ever and is in the Holiest Place of all making intercession for us.

Those who die in their sins in Matt; I believe are those who are caught in their sins when natural death comes, and where the Lord is they cannot come.

Have you ever considered that it was only the "souls" that John saw that lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years and the "rest" of the dead may have been the bodies of those souls that lived not again until the 1000 years was finished?
Have you ever considered what it is that really "binds the devil"? It is the fear of God and even in us the "fear of God" is what takes away any hold that satan has on us. Also, when Jesus died the earth turn dark and great earthquakes and even the veil rent in two. Do you think there must of been a fear came upon all of them for even the soldiers to confess, "truly this is the son of Man"? Just a thought.

When Jesus spoke of the Resurrection He didn't separate it in two Resurrections. He said the hour is coming when ALL that are in the grave SHALL COME FORTH, (both good and the bad) etc.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

WOW --- I agree with Brother Bob on something.

Also, can anyone do a search on "1000" in the Scriptures? For example, when God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, is it a literal 1000 hills or is this a general term?

 

[Brother Bob]

WOW --- I agree with Brother Bob on something.

Well, thank you but I suspect you might agree with Brother Bob on a lot.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well, thank you but I suspect you might agree with Brother Bob on a lot.

Oh, I always agree with Brother Bob on the subject of 'Lot' (Abraham's
Nephew), 'used car lots', and (parden the expression)
a lot of other subjects.
It is Eschatological details on which we vary :saint:

Meanwhile, consider my discussion of 2 Thess 2:1-3:
------------------------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
----------------------------------------------

Then there is my story of the AMAZING JOHN DARBY
and his handy dandy time machine.

in 1830 The AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY invented the
modern 'doctrine of the rapture' (which He developed
more over the next 40 including revival meetings in
the USofA). But the AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY had his
1870 rapture thoughts all figured out by 1830, two
years before his first book. NOT, come on, the Lord
was working with Evangelist & AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY
developing his 'modern doctrine of the seperate and
distinct rapture'.

But this isn't the only thing you need to know about
AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY. He comissioned a time
machine (paid for for his left over evangelist/missionary
pounds) and went back in time. AMAZING JOHN NELSON
DARBY went back to 1587 to
make sure the Geneva Bible says 'DEPARTURE' in
2 Thess 2:3 (the translators of the Geneva Bible had
the English word 'apostasy' back in 1587 as well as we in 2006 do).
AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY went back to 1611 to
make sure the King James Version (KJV) says 'FALLING AWAY'' in
2 Thess 2:3 (the translators of the KJV had
the English word 'apostasy' back in 1611 as well as we in 2006 do).
Then the AMAZING JOHN NELSON
DARBY went to five different times before 1587 and
got five earlier English documents to use some form
of 'departure' in 2 Thess 2:3. Though I think before 1400
the English word 'apostasy' probably didn't exist, only it's
Greek equivalent.
Isn't the AMAZING JOHN NELSON DARBY really fantisitc
and his time machine amazing!!!

 

[LeBuick]

Those who die in their sins in Matt; I believe are those who are caught in their sins when natural death comes, and where the Lord is they cannot come.

I stayed up late picking this apart and believe you have a good point. The rich man and the beggar is the illustration. Even though Christ was specifically speaking to the Jews, the meaning is universal, if you don't accept him before the death of this flesh you can't be with him in heaven.

How does this play with the 144K? It is obvious they are Israel, what criteria selects the 12K from each tribe? Will these jews accept Christ or are they saved via another criteria?

Have you ever considered that it was only the "souls" that John saw that lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years and the "rest" of the dead may have been the bodies of those souls that lived not again until the 1000 years was finished?

So I understand, you contend we'll live (reign) 1K years with Jesus without our bodies, then our bodies will be raised later?

Also, when Jesus died the earth turn dark and great earthquakes and even the veil rent in two. Do you think there must of been a fear came upon all of them for even the soldiers to confess, "truly this is the son of Man"? Just a thought.

Great, just as when the stone rolled away from the tumb or when Peter was in prison. Why is it God don't move in these same ways these days?