Is the rapture a relatively new idea of christians?

[Brother Bob]

So I understand, you contend we'll live (reign) 1K years with Jesus without our bodies, then our bodies will be raised later?

I believe those souls are the ones that are under the altar of God and cried "how long oh Lord until thou advenge our blood upon them that do dwell on the earth. (now the part that tells when this took place) God told them to rest on a little while long and He gave them "something", He gave them a long white robe. (Where did the robe come from and how come they didn't already have it being they were in Heaven under the Altar of God?) Well, the white robes come from the blood of the Lamb and at this time when they didn't have the robes the blood had not been shed and these were those who died before the coming of Christ but they still went to Heaven but were waiting on the promise of the Father that He would send a Messiah.
John saw a number in Heaven that no man could number and they were clothed in white and one of the twenty four Elders said unto John, who are they John that are clothed in white? and John said Sir, thou knowest. (here is the answer to the souls receiveing the robes) These are they that have come up through great tribulations and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. So, these souls under the altar of God didn't have their robes and something disturbed them. There is nothing in Heaven to disturb them, and it was when they were going to receive their robes which would come from the blood of Christ so it had to be when Jesus died on the cross that Heaven was disturbed and God fulfilled His promise to Israel and those souls that had died waiting on the promise received their long white robes. Then God told them to rest on a little while longer.
Those same souls are the ones who lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ a 1000 years. Remember God is timeless and 1 day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as one day. Lived and reigned is in the past tense and I believe it is already past and when those saints arose from the ground when Jesus arose on the third is: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was finished". So, their souls receive their robes when the blood was shed and their bodies or rest of the dead arose from the ground when Jesus did.

Great, just as when the stone rolled away from the tumb or when Peter was in prison. Why is it God don't move in these same ways these days?

He does as far as men getting rid of satan for the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding.
If you will look at Rev you will see where Jesus said I shook the earth one time and I will shake it again and also I will shake the Heavens.
Well this is where I believe what Ed is talking about in 1Thes 4:13 when Paul wrote I would not have you ignornant brethren that you sorrow not as others that have not hope for if we believe that Jesus died and arose again even so them that are asleep in Jesus (The souls of the righteous coming back for their bodies) will God bring with Him.

Now the "dead in Christ shall rise first and we that are left and remain shall not hinder them that are in the grave from coming forth but shall be changed in a moment and a twinkling of an eye." (It is talking about the righteous)
Even though the "dead in Christ shall rise first" does not mean that is all there is to the resurrection for also this is the hour when all in the grave shall come forth so it is like building a bridge. You start on one side and build across the river but when you get done you only have One bridge. Same is true with the resurrection, "dead in Christ" shall rise first and rist to meet the Lord in the air and the unjust shall come forth then to stand before God and the books opened and they will be judged out of the things written in the books. Death and Hell shall give up the dead in them (soul in hell and body in death) and the sea shall give up the dead in them and stand before God and be judged out of the things written in the books and then both death and hell shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. amen,

 

[LeBuick]

Something doesn't sit right Bro Bob but I can't readily put my finger on what it is.

For those of us with ADD;

1. Some died with hope in the coming of the messiah

2. Christ died, their souls were taken to heaven and are now under the Alter and have (past tense) reigned 1000 years with Christ.

3. They received their robes.

4. The Resurrection (second if you consider step two as the first)

a. Dead in Christ shall rise
b. Those living with be transformed
c. The dead in hell will come forth to be judged
d. second death and hell or eternity with our Lord


Can you put this in order for me? I can match your words better if I had an outline.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Those who died under the Law their souls went to Heaven when they died and were under the Altar of God having not yet received the promise of the Messiah.

2. When Christ died a fountain was opened to the House of David for sin and uncleanlines and half flowed to the Hinder Sea and fulfilled God's promise to Israel and those who died with faith and their souls under the Altar received their white robes from the blood of the Lamb, for His blood covered all OT and NT believers. The thousand years is without time with God and I believe it happened when He died and the fear came upon the whole world that even the soldiers confessed him and then on the third morning when Christ arose (the rest of the dead lived again, their bodies) and Satan was loosed for a little season which I believe we are in now. This last part covers #2 and # 3. (the thousand years)

3. On the third and appointed morning there was a Resurrection and Jesus Christ being the firstfruits of them that slept and after He arose many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose also and went into that Holy City.

4. The tribulations where no flesh would be saved except those days were shortened for the elect sake. (that tells us that the elect will be here for the Tribulations), which I believe we are in the beginning of now and that the time is near when the Trump will began to sound and the resurrection/rapture is almost here.

5. The Voice of the arch angel and the trump of God will begin to sound and an angel will put his right foot on the sea and his left on the sand and declare by Him that sits on the throne that "time shall be not more". (no time, not a hour, not a day and neither a 1000 years) but eternity will begin.

6. Jesus will appear in the Eastern skys with his Holy angels and the Book of Life and will have the souls of all the righteous that are on the earth and in the earth and will reunite the souls of the dead with their bodies and resurrect them and those that are left and remain shall not hinder them from coming forth but be changed in a moment and a twinkle of an eye (hence the dead in Christ will rise first) and all will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and to everyly be with Him. During that same time as the Saints leave the unsaved will come forth also to stand before God and be judged. The graves, hell and the sea will give up the unbelievers and after being judged will be cast into a lake of fire which is the second death. During this time which according to the Scriptures it will be the space of a half an hour but how long that is I don't know for I can't measure time for God but the vials of the wrath of God will be poured out on this earth, the devil will be put down forever, the earth will pass away with a great noise.

I hope its clear LeBuick.

 

[DHK]

Something doesn't sit right Bro Bob but I can't readily put my finger on what it is.

For those of us with ADD;

1. Some died with hope in the coming of the messiah

2. Christ died, their souls were taken to heaven and are now under the Alter and have (past tense) reigned 1000 years with Christ.

3. They received their robes.

4. The Resurrection (second if you consider step two as the first)

a. Dead in Christ shall rise
b. Those living with be transformed
c. The dead in hell will come forth to be judged
d. second death and hell or eternity with our Lord


Can you put this in order for me? I can match your words better if I had an outline.

The gospel is very simple--that Jesus died, was buried and rose again from the dead.
Having said that, Christ is the only one that has risen from the dead. There has been no past resurrection. There is no one in heaven wearing white robes that has a resurrection body. What John saw in his visions has been open to many and various interpretations. We must go with the facts that we know for sure.

There are two and only two resurrenctions. Neither of those two resurrections have taken place yet. Therefore all who are in heaven are spirits. Spirits don't have robes. Remeber Mary may be in heaven, but she is a spirit. Don't be like a Catholic and think that praying to Mary means praying to one who is human. Mary is dead, and remains dead to this dead. Why? Just like Muhammed (unsaved), her body is dead and in the grave today. That is what we define as a dead person. Her spirit may live on with Christ, but she along with all the apostles are dead. The resurrection has not taken place.

Some day Christ will come. He will come for his own--with the trump of God, with the voice of an archangel--and the "dead in Christ" shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up.."
The dead in Christ are simply the believers who have died before us. They will also include the Old Testament saints, believers who have died before us. All believers who are dead at that time that Christ dies will arise from the graves. Then those which are alive will ascend with Christ. The order that is described by Paul in 1Thes.4 really doesn't matter much, for 1Cor.15 he tells that all of that will take place in a "twinkling of an eye," so fast that no one will be able to notice.
At that time (the rapture) all saved will receive their glorified bodies. Shortly, (very shortly) after that the tribulation will start and will last for seven years. At the end of seven years we will return with Christ at his Second Coming and reign with him on this earth for 1,000 years.
At the end of the one thousand years Satan will lead one last rebellion against God, and will be defeated. At that time the second resurrecction will take place. It is called the Great White Throne Judgement where all the unsaved will stand before God and be judged in their own bodies before God. There they will receive their final sentence and condemnation and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev.20:11-15).

1. The rapture. (believers only--first resurrection)
2. Tribulation (7 years)
3. Second Coming
4. Millennial Kingdom (1,000 years)
5. Second Resurrection (Great White Throne Judgement)
6. Eternity

 

[Brother Bob]

The gospel is very simple--that Jesus died, was buried and rose again from the dead.
Having said that, Christ is the only one that has risen from the dead. There has been no past resurrection. There is no one in heaven wearing white robes that has a resurrection body. What John saw in his visions has been open to many and various interpretations. We must go with the facts that we know for sure.

According to the Scriptures there has been a resurrection already. To say there has been no resurrection of the dead of many of the bodies of the saints is against scripture.

KJMatt.27
50": Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

"51": And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

"52": And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (Resurrection)

"53": And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Revelation, chapter 6
"10": And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

"11": And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Souls under the alter of God and they were given "white robes".


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"19": If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

"20": But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"21": For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

"22": For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

"23": But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Shows it already happened, already been a First Resurrection and as He told Martha "I am the Resurrection".)

At that time (the rapture) all saved will receive their glorified bodies. Shortly, (very shortly) after that the tribulation will start and will last for seven years. At the end of seven years we will return with Christ at his Second Coming and reign with him on this earth for 1,000 years. (where you get the seven years)
At the end of the one thousand years Satan will lead one last rebellion against God, and will be defeated. At that time the second resurrecction will take place. It is called the Great White Throne Judgement where all the unsaved will stand before God and be judged in their own bodies before God. There they will receive their final sentence and condemnation and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (

John, chapter 5
"28": Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (one resurrection to come)

"29": And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe the Scripture.
There are more books written on the Resurrection and Revelation than any other subject. There are many different veiws. All the veiws I read are long and strung out with several resurrections.
I use just the Scripture and understand it to be a quick work with One resurrection to come of the just and unjust as Jesus taught. I will stay with what the Lord taught myself. He never spoke of a 1000 years to come.

 

[LeBuick]

I can't get away from Jesus saying "if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come".

Hello
I am using Lebuick but I am the doctor... I am a fried and co-laborer and will register and start posting on this forum.

In the above reference to John, when you say dying in sin are you saying that you are perfect and that we will have no sin at all. I don't believe that, according to scripture this is wrong. We have already been judged with Christ on the cross. In Eph 2:8-9 it says that by grace are we saved through faith and not of ourselves least no man can boast. It is a gift of God. So once I accpet Christ as my savior I am eternally saved and the doing of sin has no effect on my salvation.

In Rom 7, Paul dealt with this same issue by saying the the things that I say I will do I find myself not doing and if we say that we are going to do something and we don't, does that not make us a liar? He goes on to say the things I won't do is what I find myself doing. Isn't lying a sin or do you have another definition of sin?

 

[Brother Bob]

In the above reference to John, when you say dying in sin are you saying that you are perfect and that we will have no sin at all. I don't believe that, according to scripture this is wrong. We have already been judged with Christ on the cross. In Eph 2:8-9 it says that by grace are we saved through faith and not of ourselves least no man can boast. It is a gift of God. So once I accpet Christ as my savior I am eternally saved and the doing of sin has no effect on my salvation.

In Rom 7, Paul dealt with this same issue by saying the the things that I say I will do I find myself not doing and if we say that we are going to do something and we don't, does that not make us a liar? He goes on to say the things I won't do is what I find myself doing. Isn't lying a sin or do you have another definition of sin?

Well, I guess there are others that believe the church still has its sins but I believe in a clean church where when you are born again though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as snow. I beg your pardon sir. I do not lie. Maybe you do but don't accuse me of it.
My Bible teaches me there will be NO liars in Heaven so if you are a liar I admonish you to quit and repent of it.

When you question "if you die in your sin where I am you cannot come" then you are questioning the Lord Himself not me.

In the above reference to John, when you say dying in sin are you saying that you are perfect and that we will have no sin at all. I don't believe that, according to scripture this is wrong. We have already been judged with Christ on the cross. In Eph 2:8-9 it says that by grace are we saved through faith and not of ourselves least no man can boast. It is a gift of God. So once I accpet Christ as my savior I am eternally saved and the doing of sin has no effect on my salvation.

So, are you saying now that you are a Christian you can commit adultery, steal, lie, worship the sun, dishonor your Father and Mother etc??????

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

So, are you saying now that you are a Christian you can commit adultery, steal, lie, worship the sun, dishonor your Father and Mother etc??????

Yes -- but the desire to do so no longer dwells within. No man can serve two masters, and I have but one.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes -- but the desire to do so no longer dwells within. No man can serve two masters, and I have but one.

It was for that very attitude that Jesus came in the first place. Israel felt just like you do.

Also, how do you do this: Yes -- but the desire to do so no longer dwells within. No man can serve two masters, and I have but one. Can you commit adultery with no desire? I think you need to rethink that one. If you were Pastor and maybe you are would you allow your members to do such things as I have listed and remain members of your church?

 

[Brother Bob]

DHK: There are two and only two resurrenctions. Neither of those two resurrections have taken place yet. Therefore all who are in heaven are spirits. Spirits don't have robes. Remeber Mary may be in heaven, but she is a spirit. Don't be like a Catholic and think that praying to Mary means praying to one who is human. Mary is dead, and remains dead to this dead. Why? Just like Muhammed (unsaved), her body is dead and in the grave today. That is what we define as a dead person. Her spirit may live on with Christ, but she along with all the apostles are dead. The resurrection has not taken place.

Where are their souls DHK?

 

[LeBuick]

When you question "if you die in your sin where I am you cannot come" then you are questioning the Lord Himself not me.

So, are you saying now that you are a Christian you can commit adultery, steal, lie, worship the sun, dishonor your Father and Mother etc??????

Hey Bro Bob, this is LeBuick, his account has yet to be activated so he can't post. He came over and saw I was in the group and began reading your post. He found your particularly post interesting and said he wanted to get your view on a subject. I am sorry this confused you but as soon as his account activates he will begin posting with it.

I must also warn you, He's a calvinist and is one who I sit and discuss scripture with all the time. Steel sharpens steel.

Chuck

....

This the The Doctor again,

Bob, have you ever told a joke? Is a joke true? Is all Jokes true? Have you ever said you were going to be somewhere at a certian time and didn't make it? What is a lie to you?

Asking about adultry and the other things you mention, my question to you is what did you do to save yourself and what can you do to keep yourself saved? In the OT we saw that all that man did in keeping the law did not save him. So can I commit adultry and be saved, yes? Do I want to commit adultry, no? Can I not honor my father ad mother and be saved, yes? For there it says that one that if we want our days to be long upon the land but what if I don't, then my days will be short?

My salvation is not based on what I do or don't do it is based on Christ choosing me from the foundation of the world and dying on the cross for my sins (past, present and future) as spoken of in Eph (chosen).

Since Eph definately says it is not by works, and 1 Jn 2 it says if any sin we have an advocate with the father with Christ Jesus. That word IF means that it is possible. If you go back to the 1 chpts of 1 John, it says if you have no sin then you are a liar and the truth is not in you. I don't question Christ, I question your interpretation of what he said.

In reading your post I came across one that spoke of the ressurrection where you state that one has already happened and that Jesus was the first to resurrect. Mt 27:50 we see Jesus died, he was dead and the graves were opened and they saw many bodies of the sints which slept, arose and came out of the grave and appeard into the city. Now what is strange is that Christ had not resurrected yet. So, what you say is very confusing? Or was that verse just a after thought from Matt?

Man is so vain that he thinks that he has to have something to do with his salvation. Salvation is from the Lord not man. Now you may not be one who thinks like this but there are some who do.

 

[Brother Bob]

This the The Doctor again,

Bob, have you ever told a joke? Is a joke true? Is all Jokes true? Have you ever said you were going to be somewhere at a certian time and didn't make it? What is a lie to you?

Not that anyway. a lie is to tell false to deceive someone.

Now what is strange is that Christ had not resurrected yet. So, what you say is very confusing? Or was that verse just a after thought from Matt?

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Maybe this will help doctor. You have to take it all.

Man is so vain that he thinks that he has to have something to do with his salvation. Salvation is from the Lord not man. Now you may not be one who thinks like this but there are some who do.

I am sure we will cover this from one end to another but I don't think your chosen few doctrine will stand the test.

Asking about adultry and the other things you mention, my question to you is what did you do to save yourself and what can you do to keep yourself saved? In the OT we saw that all that man did in keeping the law did not save him. So can I commit adultry and be saved, yes? Do I want to commit adultry, no? Can I not honor my father ad mother and be saved, yes? For there it says that one that if we want our days to be long upon the land but what if I don't, then my days will be short?

I take from this doctor that you believe you are kept by God? Is that right?

Let me explain about me before we get started Doctor. I believe in a clean church. I believe in keeping the Ten Commandments. I believe that I sin but not a sin unto death such as adultery. I believe if you commit adultery you were never saved to start with but was only a hypocrit or as the Scriptures says "If a man were to taste of the good fruits of the Lord and if He were to fall to renew him unto repentance again is impossible" Also there is a sin unto death of which I think adultery is one and if not forgiven I believe a person will go to hell. If someone in our church commits adultery we withdraw from that person as the Bible tells us to do. I don't believe in playing church but I believe in the real church. peace,

 

[LeBuick]

Again, sorry for the confusion Bro Bob but that was my scripture talking buddy who is also a local Pastor. he stopped by to tell me what happened with the minister's today since i didn't go. i think my gout is kicking up in my foot.

He is determined now to make me a 5 point calvinist. He is sending me something called the tulip which is says will explain it all to me. See what you did?

What he was saying was this;

1. Christ died Mt 27:50
2. The dead got out the grave Mt 27:52,53
3. Christ arose Mt 28:1 - 7

His argument is this is not the first ressurection but that the first ressurection is yet to come. He vows to show you the rapture in scripture once he gets home. He has a meeting before he get's home.

Again, sorry for te confusion,

Chuck

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, but he first said the bodies got up before Jesus until I posted this and then he never answered.

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I can send you the TULIP but if you are not founded on God so Loved the World, then he may get you but their doctrine don't hold water.

All the guys on here have been trying to show me the same thing and haven't succeeded as of yet.

Hey LeBuick; Here is something I would like you to keep in mind.

Instead of saying "I saw the souls that were beheaded for the word of God" it has a reason for saying it this way, "I

saw the souls OF THEM that were beheaded for the word of God and the testimony which they held". Why? did it say "I

saw a part of a whole"? I saw the souls OF THEM.

It was just the souls that lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ for a 1000 years. That is the Scripture and no

matter what they say, they cannot change the scripture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //5. The Voice of the arch angel and the trump of God
will begin to sound and an angel will put his right foot
on the sea and his left on the sand and declare
by Him that sits on the throne
that "time shall be not more". (no time, not a hour,
not a day and neither a 1000 years) but eternity will begin.//

Please define 'hour', 'day', '1,000 years', 'time', and 'eternity'.
Biblical definitions are prefered. Also we need to look at the
scripture(s) you are misreading to build such a statement.
By common defintions of 'time' and 'eternity' the phrase
//"time shall be not more". (no time, not a hour, not a day and neither a 1000 years) but eternity will begin ... //
is nonsense. Eternity, by common definition, has no beginning
nor end.

Here is a writing I wrote earlier in another venue:
-----------------------------------------------
TIME & ETERNITY

Time is a finite sub-set of the infinite set: eternity.
So the old uneducated/redneck preacher that talks
about when time ends and eternity begins is 'full of it'.
Eternity by nature has no beginning and no end. God
is the creator of Eternity and exists outside Eternity as
well inside Eternity.

BTW, it is worse than I describe, a common misunderstanding
of the King James Version (KJV) leads to the 'when time ends
and eternity begins' doctrinal error.

Ad Time (eternity) H5703 - used once
Aion Time (age) G165
Aionios Time (eternal) G166
Chronos Time (time) G5550
Eis aion aion Time (forever and ever) G1519, G165, G165
Kairos Time (time ) G2540
Hemera Time (day) G2250
Hora Time (hour) G2610

Isa 57:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
For thus saith the High and loftie One that inhabiteth eternitie,
whose Name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place:
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to reuiue the spirit of the humble,
and to reuiue the heart of the contrite ones.

On 15 Aug 2006 I did a Google search on "time ends and eternity begins"
getting 44 'hits'. So this is a used (though non-biblical and
non-sense) concept.
--------------------------------------
Where does the quote "time shall be not more" come from?
The only source i can find seems to be a song:

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound
And time shall be no more
When the morning breaks eternal, bright, and fair
When the saved of earth shall gather
Over on the other shore
When the roll is callled up yonder I'll be there.

Well, it is a catchy song, but unscriptural.


Rev 10:6-7 (KJV1611 Edition):
And sware by him that liueth for euer and euer,
who created heauen, and the things that therein are,
and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea,
and the things which are therein, that there should bee time no longer.
7 But in the dayes of the voice of the seuenth Angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mysterie of God should be finished,
as hee hath declared to his seruants the Prophets.

The phrases "that there should bee time no longer"
and "the mysterie of God should be finished" are two ways
of saying the same thing.

 

[LeBuick]

Yea, but he first said the bodies got up before Jesus until I posted this and then he never answered.

Sorry, we went off on a different tangent. He started telling me about a sermon he was working on and there we went.

Hey LeBuick; Here is something I would like you to keep in mind.

Instead of saying "I saw the souls that were beheaded for the word of God" it has a reason for saying it this way, "I

saw the souls OF THEM that were beheaded for the word of God and the testimony which they held". Why? did it say "I

saw a part of a whole"? I saw the souls OF THEM.

It was just the souls that lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ for a 1000 years. That is the Scripture and no

matter what they say, they cannot change the scripture.

i'll keep this in my memory, if I don't forget...

 

[Brother Bob]

Please define 'hour', 'day', '1,000 years', 'time', and 'eternity'.
Biblical definitions are prefered. Also we need to look at the
scripture(s) you are misreading to build such a statement.
By common defintions of 'time' and 'eternity' the phrase
//"time shall be not more". (no time, not a hour, not a day and neither a 1000 years) but eternity will begin ... //
is nonsense. Eternity, by common definition, has no beginning
nor end.

It says a thousand years is as 1 day and 1 day as a thousand years with God but what is God's time. Is it the same as man's or is God just "timeless" and thousand years is nothing to him.
I don't think you can use a thousand years to build your case for its past tense. Also, would you please tell me why did the Scripture not say " I saw the souls of them that were beheaded" and they lived and reigned with Christ a Thousand years?

So, eternity has no beginning but man does have a beginning so he has to enter into eternity. You could say when he is born of woman but then he dies doesn't he or at least his body does. Then man is resurrected to never have an end again if he is Christian and even if he is an unbeliever he will die but never die, so that is a type of eternity Ed;
Who hath known the mind of God and who hath been His councelor.
One of us and maybe a whole bunch of us misreads the scriptures Ed; but we do agree on one thing and that is up to being redeemed from the earth.

I don't know Ed; but think there is a Scripture talks about night in Heaven but in order for that to happen the Son would have to leave and all the saved for their countance is as the Sun shineth in its strength. Lot we don't know yet Ed; Bible says here we know in part. Paul was probably the smartest of all the apostles but yet he saw through a glass darkly. Anytime anyone says they know all about Revelation tell me a whole lot about that person right off the bat.

I think when it says that "time shall be no more" its talking about the time of man. I know it says 7th day but it also says a space of an half an hour. What is a "time,times and a half of a time". Do you know? Is it 3 1/2 years or is it 245 years or is it some time only God knows?

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

1 & 2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4 (the resurrections
of the just): The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceed the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

13 Mysteries, part 1 of 2

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.
(for the definition of 'Mystery' here
see Mystery #5 and the scripture at Eph 3:5)

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church

out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The 13 Mysteries, part 2 of 2

8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonians that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.