is the SDA Church then a cult?

[JonC]

"There is no record of the actual Catholic Church (as we use the term today) existing for the first couple centuries after Christ's resurrection."

We use the term Catholic church same way as the early church.

"first couple centuries" How about within 70 years good enough?

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

That is the Bishop Ignatius of Antioch. Disciple of John the apostle and appointed to his position by Peter.

Since he knows the apostles directly logic is he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to christianity?

The sweet thing about history is you get multiple perspectives not only from your "protagonists" but your "antagonists"

You got these catholics teaching catholic doctrine, you got romans and jews complaining about catholics.

When heretics show up, we got a history of what they believe and their view.

No where in history is a group butting heads and saying.......wait hold on who are these new guys these CATHOLICS.

They were always around. No where does anyone say we are baptists till 1500s when a ANGLICAN PRIEST became the first Baptist. He also BAPTIZED himself which he later repented of.

The guy who INVENTED BAPTIST, Left the baptist faith to be a Anabaptist-Mennonite.

Why? Cause he understood you couldn't be a PRETEND church that started last weekend, You are either the real deal or not. We can PLAINLY see who started your faith in history

We not putting in Job applications to be the Church of Jesus Christ. He started a church find it, if you don't like what you find fix it. But don't fake it.

Follow the first of each. First baptist, anglican priest, first anglican priest, CATHOLIC. You can't have a long line of fake teachers and you spontaneously understand Christianity better than anyone thousands of years later without it being taught to you. Then swear yourself the true while all your teachers are fake? Please....

No. You use the term to refer to the Catholic Church as betrayed by your posts here. Otherwise it would be impossible for a Christian to leave the Catholic Church (histoircally it has meant the "universal" church, not the religious organization that was formed by the Roman Empire in the 4th century AD). The Catholic Church has claimed a history that was not theirs. So do some baptists.


Like I said, I am not trying to get you to look outside of wherever you are. I believe that God has people where He needs them, or where they need to be. It's like Cypher said in the Matrix - "ignorance is bliss".

The Catholic Church grew out of the catholic church, but at the same time it became something else.

You are speaking of Smyth, BTW, who was a baptist (not sure what type) for a very short time and wanted to join the Mennonites (but never did). Hence your confusion (Mennonites and Anabaptists are baptists - but not necessarily the other way around). A "baptist" is someone who affirms "believers baptism". Some add other criteria to this, but basically believers baptism is always the common distinctive.

 

[David Kent]

People like our friend who call the long established Catholic faith tradition a "cult" is a charge beyond the pale and frankly I am tired of hearing such nonsense.

Well the obvious answer is that if you don't like it don't come on theis forum because that is what you are and that is what you are clled --- A PSEUDO CHRISTIAN CULT

 

[Adonia]

Well the obvious answer is that if you don't like it don't come on theis forum because that is what you are and that is what you are clled --- A PSEUDO CHRISTIAN CULT

I see, so it's so much for mutual respect on this site then, hey my friend? But really, members of a sect started by one man have no room to talk is all I can say.

 

[Dave G]

Like the Mormons and JW are?

"Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:1-7 ).

 

[David Kent]

I see, so it's so much for mutual respect on this site then, hey my friend? But really, members of a sect started by one man have no room to talk is all I can say.

I don't see much frespect from you Romanists, who are here under false colours, Non Baptist Christians.


From another board:
Even Romanists baptised adults. Augustine who is often reported that Augustine brought Christianity to England. That is a blatant lie. Augustine brought Catholicism to England. There was already a church here amongst the Britons. Augustine baptised 10,000, it is said in the River*8 Swale in Kent in which cluding the Saxon King of Kent. It is also said he baptised 10,000 in the River Swale in Yorkshire, including the King of Northumbria. When he went to Wales to try to convert the Christians there and they refused, he murdered 1,000 of them.
Note*1, Although the history books say 10,000, when I hve seen t written it was XM
Note **2, The Swale in Kent is not a river but a strip of water between the Isle of Sheppey and the Mainland.

From the above you will see that there were true Christians here before Catholicism.

You Romanists are on this board sailing under false colours, (Non Baptist Christians)

 

[Adonia]

You would never have said that if you really knew any baptists

I have known a few. Some very pious and then some out drinking and carousing on Saturday night and then in church on Sunday.

"Baptists" as a whole group do not get along enough to be a sect. The term is a distinctive (there is no "Baptist" denomination but several baptistic denominations , many thinking they are not one. Baptists have existed outside of the Catholic Church.

I see, so there are different Baptist sects within the Baptist sect? LOL!

Everyone wants to pretend they are like the first church,

We don't pretend, we are the first Christian Church. Surely you remember where St. Peter (our first Bishop/Pope) was given "the keys", who in turn passed them onto his successors? (Got you!)

are like some Baptists in that they like to pretend that they are the "original" Church.

History is very clear here, it was John Smyth started the Baptist faith tradition and there were no Baptist leaders who were known as "The Early Church Fathers" of the early centuries.

Churches do not save, Jesus saves.

In the end that is ultimately true, but it is important that the correct information is given to the faithful and that is where the Church comes in.

 

[JonC]

I have known a few. Some very pious and then some out drinking and carousing on Saturday night and then in church on Sunday.



I see, so there are different Baptist sects within the Baptist sect? LOL!



We don't pretend, we are the first Christian Church. Surely you remember where St. Peter (our first Bishop/Pope) was given "the keys", who in turn passed them onto his successors? (Got you!)



History is very clear here, it was John Smyth started the Baptist faith tradition and there were no Baptist leaders who were known as "The Early Church Fathers" of the early centuries.



In the end that is ultimately true, but it is important that the correct information is given to the faithful and that is where the Church comes in.

Think of "baptist" like "conservative". Is conservative a sect? Of course not. What "evangelical"? Is that a sect? Not really. Is "western" a sect? No. These are descriptive.

But there are many sects that are Baptist (for example, I am a Southern Baptist).

I know you believe Catholics were the first church. Church of Christ members believe they are the first and only true church. Some Baptists believe they are. These myths help people who do not understand the nature of the catholic church (the Bride). Do they have a purpose.

 

[David Kent]

We don't pretend, we are the first Christian Church. Surely you remember where St. Peter (our first Bishop/Pope) was given "the keys", who in turn passed them onto his successors? (Got you!)

You split from the Greek Church under Constantine. The oriiginal church was greek speaking that is why the NT scriptures were written in Greek.

Peter was the apostle to the circumcised not the Romans. The first bishop of Rome was Linus.

 

[Adonia]

I consider "cults" to be not only sects but sects that have a doctrine that is unorthodox to the point it denies the gospel. Until the BB I had not considered SDA to fit into that category, but I also do not know much about them.

I am not sure. Jim Jones or David Koresch didn't to my knowledge deny the gospel in an unorthodox manner, but they surely seem to meet the definition of being a cult. When the personality of the leader demands total subservience by his flock to the point of death or complete control of every facet of their lives, that to me signifies a cult.

 

[JonC]

I am not sure. Jim Jones or David Koresch didn't to my knowledge deny the gospel in an unorthodox manner, but they surely seem to meet the definition of being a cult. When the personality of the leader demands total subservience by his flock to the point of death or complete control of every facet of their lives, that to me signifies a cult.

Serious? Both declared themselves messiah. You do not find this at a little bit unorthodox?

 

[Dave]

A cult follows the teaching of man and interprets the scripture by that. SDA's take.Ellen Whites writings and makes the scripture conform, same as Catholics take the Pope, Councils, and tradition and read that into the scripture. JW's and Momons do the same. Couple this with the threat of loss of salvation if you do not stay faithful to their teaching and you have a cult.

Sent from my KFSUWI using Tapatalk

 

[Adonia]

Serious? Both declared themselves messiah. You do not find this at a little bit unorthodox?

Yes, completely. I was basing my "cult" opinion on the what I remembered them for. If they claimed "Messiah" status they were completely unorthodox in outlook. Now, did the founder of SDA do the same? The Mormons? JW's? Did they all claim Messiah status?

 

[Dave]

Yes, completely. I was basing my "cult" opinion on the what I remembered them for. If they claimed "Messiah" status they were completely unorthodox in outlook. Now, did the founder of SDA do the same? The Mormons? JW's? Did they all claim Messiah status?

Just prophet status, not Messiah. Of course all off them claiming special revelation from God does seem close. Also, I believe David Korean was an SDA before getting his messiah complex.

Sent from my KFSUWI using Tapatalk

 

[Adonia]

A cult follows the teaching of man and interprets the scripture by that.

You mean like the followers of the ex- Anglican minister John Smyth? I see them following his lead on the scriptures. Like someone said earlier, the term cult could be applied to every faith tradition then.

 

[JonC]

Yes, completely. I was basing my "cult" opinion on the what I remembered them for. If they claimed "Messiah" status they were completely unorthodox in outlook. Now, did the founder of SDA do the same? The Mormons? JW's? Did they all claim Messiah status?

I do not know about the SDA, but the JW's and Mormons do hold completely unorthodox views of Christ.

 

[Adonia]

Just prophet status, not Messiah. Of course all off them claiming special revelation from God does seem close. Also, I believe David Korean was an SDA before getting his messiah complex.

Sent from my KFSUWI using Tapatalk

Every one who went off and started their own Christian faith tradition considers themselves a prophet, don't they? They received some special revelation from God that the place where they were at was not doing things right, so they up and started their own little church. How nice.

 

[Dave]

Every one who went off and started their own Christian faith tradition considers themselves a prophet, don't they? They received some special revelation from God that the place where they were at was not doing things right, so they up and started their own little church. How nice.

Not quite the same. The book of Mormon was supposedly dictated by the angel Gabriel. Ellen White claimed heavenly visions (some quite conveniently). I.don't think the Wesley's to take one example ever made any such claim. When I say prophet, in these cases, think old testament prophet, receiving and communicating some special message from God. Problem is much of it contradicts the revealed Word of God.

Sent from my KFSUWI using Tapatalk

 

[Walter]

Think of "baptist" like "conservative". Is conservative a sect? Of course not. What "evangelical"? Is that a sect? Not really. Is "western" a sect? No. These are descriptive.

But there are many sects that are Baptist (for example, I am a Southern Baptist).

I know you believe Catholics were the first church. Church of Christ members believe they are the first and only true church. Some Baptists believe they are. These myths help people who do not understand the nature of the catholic church (the Bride). Do they have a purpose.

I will remember Baptist= conservative each time I listen to all the American Baptist Convention pastors denying the virgin birth, physical resurrection of Jesus, His Diety, and embracing the Divine Feminine! According to local ABC pastors, the bible is an archaic book, full of inaccurate stories and irrelevant to today's society. Oh, yeah!

 

[Walpole]

No. You use the term to refer to the Catholic Church as betrayed by your posts here. Otherwise it would be impossible for a Christian to leave the Catholic Church (histoircally it has meant the "universal" church, not the religious organization that was formed by the Roman Empire in the 4th century AD). The Catholic Church has claimed a history that was not theirs. So do some baptists.


Like I said, I am not trying to get you to look outside of wherever you are. I believe that God has people where He needs them, or where they need to be. It's like Cypher said in the Matrix - "ignorance is bliss".

The Catholic Church grew out of the catholic church, but at the same time it became something else.

You are speaking of Smyth, BTW, who was a baptist (not sure what type) for a very short time and wanted to join the Mennonites (but never did). Hence your confusion (Mennonites and Anabaptists are baptists - but not necessarily the other way around). A "baptist" is someone who affirms "believers baptism". Some add other criteria to this, but basically believers baptism is always the common distinctive.

Protestants live in a fantasy world. Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. We can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, even the names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. The same cannot be said for Protestantism.

Trying to find Protestantism in antiquity is like trying to find the Sasquatch, Loch Ness Monster, or South Georgia Snipe.

 

[JonC]

I will remember Baptist= conservative each time I listen to all the American Baptist Convention pastors denying the virgin birth, physical resurrection of Jesus, His Diety, and embracing the Divine Feminine! According to local ABC pastors, the bible is an archaic book, full of inaccurate stories and irrelevant to today's society. Oh, yeah!

It is the same as "conservative" or "liberal" or "charismatic" or "trinitarian".

These are descriptive terms (not one sect but descriptive of many sects).

I am glad it helps, though. It is strange (being a Baptist) to encounter people who really think "Baptist" a sect or denomination.

It shows a bit of ignorance that could be prevented with a little study (just like Baptists who accuse Catholic doctrine of teaching people to worship statues).

I am anti-willful ignorance.