Is there A Baptism In the holy Spirit For today?

[John of Japan]

Let me ask you a question about your scenario..Did God allow this?

Don't be ridiculous. It's a hypothetical situation, not corresponding to anything in my experience. If it hasn't happened, certainly God didn't allow it or not allow it.

Now answer the question and quit obfuscating. Scenario: Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a non-tongues church. Without the pastor knowing, he begins trying to get Sam and Bill, members of the church, to speak in tongues. Was Joe right or wrong to do this?

 

[plain_n_simple]

Hello John, hope things are well.

 

[plain_n_simple]

"and people being raised from the dead over the past year alone all over the world. It is love that drives these people."


This is not happening anywhere.Some claim it is...but it is not.:thumbs:

You probably have a slew of scripture and teaching for me but hang back for a minute. humor me.

What kind and how much proof would you say is acceptable to believe that
A) a person died
B) someone prayed over them
C) and they came back to life?

 

[John of Japan]

Hello John, hope things are well.

God is good! We're safely back in Japan. :wavey:

 

[awaken]

Don't be ridiculous. It's a hypothetical situation, not corresponding to anything in my experience. If it hasn't happened, certainly God didn't allow it or not allow it.

Now answer the question and quit obfuscating. Scenario: Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a non-tongues church. Without the pastor knowing, he begins trying to get Sam and Bill, members of the church, to speak in tongues. Was Joe right or wrong to do this?

Was Joe wrong to show them what he believed? If so then you are saying that I am wrong in what I am doing. I am not leading anyone to speak in tongues...I am leading them to what the scriptures say about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of the Spirit.

You see...I see what you are trying to do. And I am not playing your game!
If I am wrong, then why is it so important for me to answer your question that has nothing to do with "is the baptism in the Holy Spirit for today?"
My answer is yes to that question!

 

[awaken]

1. Acts 2:39 has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
2. Acts 2:39 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
3. Acts 2:39 speaks of salvation, and has nothing to do with the 120 speaking in tongues at all. Their experience, as I said, was a one-time experience never again to be repeated in history. What has that to do with Acts 2:39??

Acts 2:33 says different!

Now your experience dictates what the Bible teaches. Is experience more important than doctrine. Satan teaches doctrine too. Many Charismatics have spoken in tongues through the power of demons. I hope you realize that.

This is why it is getting boring discussing things with you. You seem to forget that many times I have admitted that the false is out there. But that does not prove that the real is fake too! There are many false christ too! But my Lord is real! Many false teachers and preachers..but I have set under many God called ones too!

God's Spirit has not been poured out on all flesh. That is a prophesy that has not yet been fulfilled, just like the signs and wonders in the heavens have not yet been seen. Thus, no, it does not include you. Plus the fact it was a promise written to the Jews. If the Spirit had been poured out on all flesh then 100% of the world's population would be saved. Is it?

So God died for all, so are all saved! You argument does not hold up! His Holy Spirit is here for all...but not all will believe...in their unbelief they will not manifest!
You still have not answered what he was talking about in vs. 16..this and that!

Examine the Scriptures in their context. See what each one is teaching. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Take your own advice!

No they weren't; Paul had to rebuke them.

Not forbidding! Correcting! If they were not manifesting the Holy Spirit, then why did they need to be showed how to do it orderly to edify! You keep forgetting vs.39 of chapter 14.

Those that were baptized, and then spoke in tongues and prophesied were Jews. It was a sign to them and those around them, that both Paul and his message were of God. They, previous to that time, had only known of John the Baptist's message. They needed authentication. That is what tongues were for--a sign to authenticate an apostle; to be a sign to the Jew that this was from God.

I will get back to this one..off to church!

 

[Don]

You probably have a slew of scripture and teaching for me but hang back for a minute. humor me.

What kind and how much proof would you say is acceptable to believe that
A) a person died
B) someone prayed over them
C) and they came back to life?

At the very least, names, dates, and specific locations. It would be helpful to have written reports with the details.

I've seen anectdotal stories of these things circulating throughout the charismatic circles. I've never seen names, dates, or any actual records.

Had a friend once relate to me a story about how he and another charismatic felt moved to buy a gallon of milk and then drive around town until they were led to stop at a certain location and give the occupant the milk; occupant said they were out of money and had been praying about how to feed the baby. Problem with that story was, he denied that he had ever told anyone that story; but I was able to go on the internet and show him the same exact story almost word-for-word. He wouldn't tell me the name of his friend, or the name or location of who they gave the milk to.

 

[plain_n_simple]

At the very least, names, dates, and specific locations. It would be helpful to have written reports with the details.

I've seen anectdotal stories of these things circulating throughout the charismatic circles. I've never seen names, dates, or any actual records.

Had a friend once relate to me a story about how he and another charismatic felt moved to buy a gallon of milk and then drive around town until they were led to stop at a certain location and give the occupant the milk; occupant said they were out of money and had been praying about how to feed the baby. Problem with that story was, he denied that he had ever told anyone that story; but I was able to go on the internet and show him the same exact story almost word-for-word. He wouldn't tell me the name of his friend, or the name or location of who they gave the milk to.

Iris Ministries, Heidi Baker,for starts, Mozambique

 

[awaken]

Those that were baptized, and then spoke in tongues and prophesied were Jews. It was a sign to them and those around them, that both Paul and his message were of God. They, previous to that time, had only known of John the Baptist's message. They needed authentication. That is what tongues were for--a sign to authenticate an apostle; to be a sign to the Jew that this was from God.

What Jews were present? How do you know that those disciples were Jews?
How does it authenticate an apostle for someone othere than the apostle manifesting the Holy Spirit?

 

[DHK]

What Jews were present? How do you know that those disciples were Jews?
How does it authenticate an apostle for someone othere than the apostle manifesting the Holy Spirit?

CONTEXT:
It is very likely that they had heard a message from Apollos (mentioned in chapter 18) who himself did not have a good understanding of the gospel, and had to be taken aside by Aquilla and Priscilla to be further discipled before he should preach any more. But here is what the Scriptures say about him:

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

That is the last verse of chapter 18. In the original manuscripts there were no chapter breaks. They were put in much later by translators. So the story moves on without break.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
--Disciples of who? Probably of Apollos.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
--They were definitely disciples of John the Baptist. All the disciples of John the Baptist were Jews. That fact cannot be denied. These disciples were Jews. Apollos's ministry was to the Jews. And so was the ministry of John the Baptist. Thus Paul came across OT believers whom John the Baptist pointed to the coming Messiah.
Remember John 1:29
"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world"
--John pointed him out.
But they had not yet heard of the Holy Spirit. They had only heard of the message and ministry of John the Baptist.

They were Jews. Paul explained to them more clearly the way of salvation. When they understood, they were saved, the Holy Ghost came upon them, they were baptized and spoke with tongues--a sign that the message that Paul (an apostle) was authentic and that Paul himself was authentic.

That is what 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4 teach--that the gifts of the Spirit are the "signs of an apostle" as they were used here.

 

[DHK]

Acts 2:33 says different!

What does it say?
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--It simply says that the things that they now witness are of the Holy Spirit. The verse does not say that those things are available to anyone else? Do you see cloven tongues above you; a mighty rushing wind, etc.?
Why don't you experience those things when you "speak in other languages" as they did. "Tongues" means "languages".

This is why it is getting boring discussing things with you. You seem to forget that many times I have admitted that the false is out there. But that does not prove that the real is fake too! There are many false christ too! But my Lord is real! Many false teachers and preachers..but I have set under many God called ones too!

However you said you know it is true because you experienced it. Your experience dictates your doctrine instead of the other way around. Satan is a good imitator. He can even imitate the peace of God. All I am saying is how do you know that what you have is real? How do you know it is a real language. The only tongues that were spoken in the Bible were real languages known to others. What languages do you speak in? If someone doesn't know, then you stand on dangerous ground.

So God died for all, so are all saved! You argument does not hold up! His Holy Spirit is here for all...but not all will believe...in their unbelief they will not manifest!
You still have not answered what he was talking about in vs. 16..this and that!

The above is your answer to my post.
First verse 16 simply says: "This is that which is spoken by the prophet Joel."
What was spoken by the prophet Joel? I quoted it to you. Here it is again:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Then I said:
God's Spirit has not been poured out on all flesh. That is a prophesy that has not yet been fulfilled, just like the signs and wonders in the heavens have not yet been seen. Thus, no, it does not include you. Plus the fact it was a promise written to the Jews. If the Spirit had been poured out on all flesh then 100% of the world's population would be saved. Is it?

Where has God's Spirit been poured out on all flesh?
Was it God, the Holy Spirit, on the Muslim who flew the jetliners into the WTC on 9/11? Was that the Spirit of God "on all flesh"?
Is it presently the Spirit of God on all flesh that are rioting in almost every Islamic nation, even killing some Americans because one man made a film about Islam? Is that God's Spirit on all flesh?

If you think that is God's Spirit you are deluded. Those things have not happened yet. It was a partial fulfillment of prophecy.

Take your own advice!

I do. I rightly divide the Word of truth. I don't make it contradict itself, as you do.

Not forbidding! Correcting! If they were not manifesting the Holy Spirit, then why did they need to be showed how to do it orderly to edify! You keep forgetting vs.39 of chapter 14.

The rebuke and the correction were the same thing.
If you take verse 39 in context, the spiritual gifts were only for the first century, after which they ceased. Thus the "forbid not to speak in tongues" must be read "forbid not to speak in tongues" (in the first century). Remember he was writing to the Corinthian Church. That verse does not apply to you.

 

[awaken]

CONTEXT:
It is very likely that they had heard a message from Apollos (mentioned in chapter 18) who himself did not have a good understanding of the gospel, and had to be taken aside by Aquilla and Priscilla to be further discipled before he should preach any more. But here is what the Scriptures say about him:

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

That is the last verse of chapter 18. In the original manuscripts there were no chapter breaks. They were put in much later by translators. So the story moves on without break.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
--Disciples of who? Probably of Apollos.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
--They were definitely disciples of John the Baptist. All the disciples of John the Baptist were Jews. That fact cannot be denied. These disciples were Jews. Apollos's ministry was to the Jews. And so was the ministry of John the Baptist. Thus Paul came across OT believers whom John the Baptist pointed to the coming Messiah.
Remember John 1:29
"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world"
--John pointed him out.
But they had not yet heard of the Holy Spirit. They had only heard of the message and ministry of John the Baptist.

They were Jews. Paul explained to them more clearly the way of salvation. When they understood, they were saved, the Holy Ghost came upon them, they were baptized and spoke with tongues--a sign that the message that Paul (an apostle) was authentic and that Paul himself was authentic.

That is what 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4 teach--that the gifts of the Spirit are the "signs of an apostle" as they were used here.

But note...others than the apostle manifested the Holy Spirit!

 

[Don]

Iris Ministries, Heidi Baker,for starts, Mozambique

Thanks. I'll do some reading.

 

[awaken]

What does it say?
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--It simply says that the things that they now witness are of the Holy Spirit. The verse does not say that those things are available to anyone else? Do you see cloven tongues above you; a mighty rushing wind, etc.?
Why don't you experience those things when you "speak in other languages" as they did. "Tongues" means "languages".

Pentecost was a one time event! Once the Holy Spirit was poured out it was available to all that believed. Acts 10 and 19 did not experience the cloven tongues and a mighty rushing wind...Yet, they still were baptized in the Holy Spirit just like the Jews.

However you said you know it is true because you experienced it. Your experience dictates your doctrine instead of the other way around. Satan is a good imitator. He can even imitate the peace of God. All I am saying is how do you know that what you have is real? How do you know it is a real language. The only tongues that were spoken in the Bible were real languages known to others. What languages do you speak in? If someone doesn't know, then you stand on dangerous ground.

My experience confirms my faith in what the Word says! Nowhere in scriptures does it say if I do not understand the language what I am speaking..I am on dangerous grounds! That is your added twist! Acts 14 says different!

The above is your answer to my post.
First verse 16 simply says: "This is that which is spoken by the prophet Joel."
What was spoken by the prophet Joel? I quoted it to you. Here it is again:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Then I said:
God's Spirit has not been poured out on all flesh. That is a prophesy that has not yet been fulfilled, just like the signs and wonders in the heavens have not yet been seen. Thus, no, it does not include you. Plus the fact it was a promise written to the Jews. If the Spirit had been poured out on all flesh then 100% of the world's population would be saved. Is it?

Acts 1:8 says different..it has been poured out! Just like Acts 2:38 says ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Where has God's Spirit been poured out on all flesh?
Was it God, the Holy Spirit, on the Muslim who flew the jetliners into the WTC on 9/11? Was that the Spirit of God "on all flesh"?
Is it presently the Spirit of God on all flesh that are rioting in almost every Islamic nation, even killing some Americans because one man made a film about Islam? Is that God's Spirit on all flesh?

If you think that is God's Spirit you are deluded. Those things have not happened yet. It was a partial fulfillment of prophecy.

Please do not give credit to the Holy Spirit for what the Muslim did! All will not receive...Not that it was not poured out! Christ died for all...but all will not believe. Just because the Muslims do not believe in Christ does not mean He did not die for all.

I do. I rightly divide the Word of truth. I don't make it contradict itself, as you do.

The rebuke and the correction were the same thing.
If you take verse 39 in context, the spiritual gifts were only for the first century, after which they ceased. Thus the "forbid not to speak in tongues" must be read "forbid not to speak in tongues" (in the first century). Remember he was writing to the Corinthian Church. That verse does not apply to you.

Nowhere in scriptures does it say that it would die out in the first century!!!!!! NOWHERE!! Can you tell me what day and year it ceased? I believe that would be in Christians history books! "ON such and such day at such and such hour the Holy Spirit left us and we can not manifest Holy Spirit anymore"...a little ridiculeous! Because it did not happen!!

 

[John of Japan]

Was Joe wrong to show them what he believed? If so then you are saying that I am wrong in what I am doing. I am not leading anyone to speak in tongues...I am leading them to what the scriptures say about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of the Spirit.

You see...I see what you are trying to do. And I am not playing your game!
If I am wrong, then why is it so important for me to answer your question that has nothing to do with "is the baptism in the Holy Spirit for today?"
My answer is yes to that question!

No, you don't see what I am doing. You have misunderstood me. I'm talking about the local church of Jesus Christ, not an open Internet forum. You are free to say whatever you want here within the rules of the forum.

I have no idea what you have done in your local church or any other local church, so I am not saying you are wrong in what you are doing. I'm talking about the local church of Jesus Christ. Do you know anything about ecclesiology?

So answer the question. Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a church, A LOCAL CHURCH not an Internet forum, and without the pastor knowing starts teaching Bill and Sam, members of that LOCAL CHURCH (not Internet forum) about tongues. Is he (not you) right to do this or wrong?

 

[awaken]

No, you don't see what I am doing. You have misunderstood me. I'm talking about the local church of Jesus Christ, not an open Internet forum. You are free to say whatever you want here within the rules of the forum.

I have no idea what you have done in your local church or any other local church, so I am not saying you are wrong in what you are doing. I'm talking about the local church of Jesus Christ. Do you know anything about ecclesiology?

So answer the question. Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a church, A LOCAL CHURCH not an Internet forum, and without the pastor knowing starts teaching Bill and Sam, members of that LOCAL CHURCH (not Internet forum) about tongues. Is he (not you) right to do this or wrong?

If they were following God, I see no harm in sharing what they have learned with others.

 

[Iconoclast]

You probably have a slew of scripture and teaching for me but hang back for a minute. humor me.

What kind and how much proof would you say is acceptable to believe that
A) a person died
B) someone prayed over them
C) and they came back to life?

PNS,

I have seen these claims posted on youtube...the lady in africa, these other claims...they are not true.I am aware of them.

PNS.....we come to truth by what does the scripture say, not personal anecdotes. Why would any church person not want all the God has for them???? All christians would like to be Apostles....but it is just not so.

The only dead any of us are going to be used by God to raise are the spiritually dead all around us.

like the little boy in that movie said: I see dead people, they are all around me....they do not know they are dead.....they want me to help them..

That is why we are here PNS....to worship and serve God and be used to win the lost. To make false claims of raising dead people, to make silly rhyming noises, while rolling around on the floor, barking like dogs, and other animal noises....is not grace....it is disgrace.

Get the right view of the fall and sin, and present the right view of the cross.:thumbs:

 

[Don]

If they were following God, I see no harm in sharing what they have learned with others.

Without telling the pastor?

Would you allow someone to come into your church and start meeting privately with the other members, trying to convince them that tongues are wrong?

 

[Iconoclast]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an historical event.

First, it was a definite promise to the Apostles. He would come at a definite time:

[FONT=&quot]John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The command to wait:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
They go to Jerusalem as commanded, and they wait there.


[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They go to an upper room and pray (probably in the Temple somewhere).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Then on the next day, the Day of Pentecost comes:
[FONT=&quot]Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.[/FONT]
--This is a historical event never again to be repeated in history.

There was a promise specifically given to them in the gospels.
There was a command in Acts 1 to wait in Jerusalem.
Finally, on the Day of Pentecost, according to the promise given, and the command obeyed, the Holy Spirit came, as the Lord said He would.

This will never again happen in history; never again happened in the Book of Acts. It is a one time event. Similar events happened in Acts 10 and 19, but nothing like this ever happened again in all of history.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::type: This is what happened ...just this way.

 

[John of Japan]

If they were following God, I see no harm in sharing what they have learned with others.

Wow, that was like pulling my own teeth just to get you to answer a simple question. Are you always so suspicious of people?

Now I'll make my point, which I believe is a very important one. As Tom and I have both told you, tongues often cause divisions in churches (and you have not denied this, meaning you tacitly agree). The Greek word airesiV (hairesis) occurs a number of times in the NT as "sect," as in the Pharisees. Paul specifically said to the Corinthians, "There will be haireseis (plural) among you, that they which are approved may be known" (1 Cor. 11:19). It is listed as a work of the flesh in Gal. 5:20. In 2 Peter 2:1 such things are called "damnable." It is the Greek word for "heresy," and it literally means a division or a faction.

Someone who causes such a division is a heretic, the Greek word being hairetikos. Paul tells Titus in 3:10-11, "10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

In our scenario, Joe is a heretic, because is causing a division in the local church, which Jesus Christ shed his blood for. If he teaches tongues in a tongues speaking church, fine. I believe in the Baptist distinctive of the autonomy of the local church. But by saying it is okay for Joe to teach tongues to members of a non tongues-speaking church, you are advocating heresy.

I sincerely hope you'll rethink this. The manifestations of the Spirit that you are advocating are a very minor doctrine, even if you have it right (which I don't believe you do). To say that they are important to the extent of splitting a local church is very dangerous spiritually. Jesus Christ will defend His church, and woe be to the person who splits it. I know of a case where five people banded together to kick out a pastor, thus eventually destroying that church, and God took each one of them in the months to follow: cancer, a car accident, etc.