plain_n_simple
Active Member
Where's the love? This has turned bad and solves nothing.
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Is there A Baptism In the holy Spirit For today?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
I agree! So this is why I am posting the whole PRIVATE pm...so the whole truth will come out!
Originally Posted by awaken: (Private Pm)
I am not responding to your post in "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
I do not believe that when someone spreads the truth that is is heresy. Jesus spread the truth all the time and it caused division...would you call him a heritic?
Posted by John of Japan:
I'm amazed that you still don't understand. Heresy occurs in a local church, not in the life of Jesus, not on an Internet board, not at the mall. That is what I have said all along. I don't know how to put it in any plainer English than I have.
It is no problem of mine that you are not going to respond any more. It is your problem. I have clearly pointed out what the Word of God says. It is up to you to accept it or reject it.
Awaken:
My only problem is that you insinuated that I was condoning heresy! If your church split because someone was sharing the truth...how is that heresy?
John of Japan:
I didn't insinuate it, I said it right out.
The doctrine of tongues is a very minor doctrine in Scripture. For someone to go to a church not their own, teach to church members such a minor doctrine opposed by the church without the pastor's knowledge (I don't care if it is the "truth" or not, he has no right before God to do that, not being the pastor), yes that is heresy. Stop condoning it.
I am not responding to your post in "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
I do not believe that when someone spreads the truth that is is heresy. Jesus spread the truth all the time and it caused division...would you call him a heritic?
Posted by John of Japan:
I'm amazed that you still don't understand. Heresy occurs in a local church, not in the life of Jesus, not on an Internet board, not at the mall. That is what I have said all along. I don't know how to put it in any plainer English than I have.
It is no problem of mine that you are not going to respond any more. It is your problem. I have clearly pointed out what the Word of God says. It is up to you to accept it or reject it.
Awaken:
My only problem is that you insinuated that I was condoning heresy! If your church split because someone was sharing the truth...how is that heresy?
John of Japan:
I didn't insinuate it, I said it right out.
The doctrine of tongues is a very minor doctrine in Scripture. For someone to go to a church not their own, teach to church members such a minor doctrine opposed by the church without the pastor's knowledge (I don't care if it is the "truth" or not, he has no right before God to do that, not being the pastor), yes that is heresy. Stop condoning it.
Good. I welcome it. I have absolutely nothing to hide. But on the contrary, you have over and over refused to answer my questions about your beliefs. You still haven't answered my question as to whether you believe that tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and you outright refused to answer it the last time I asked.
Last edited by a moderator:
I have no patience for people who condone splitting churches--none whatsoever. Love in this case is rebuking the sin.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
So I think John is saying that if God wanted a particular flock to learn something not normally taught or practiced by said church, He would do it through the pastor only?
Not quite. I am saying the pastor is the one in charge of the doctrine in the church. He is the undershepherd who answers directly to Chief Shepherd Jesus Christ for the spiritual condition of the church. He is tasked with the doctrine of the church a number of times in the pastoral epistles, such as, 2 Tim. 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
The pastor is also charged with protecting the flock from false doctrine, in particular in Acts 20:28-29, where Paul told the overseers/pastors of the church at Ephesus, "28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."
Any wise pastor will realize that (1) there are people in the church who have much to teach, including deacons and other mature Christians, and (2) it is wise to bring in other preachers and others with specialized knowledge to teach the people things he cannot.
But in the end, it is the pastor who must give account for the flock to God: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" (Heb. 13:17). The doctrine of tongues has caused incredible grief to many pastors and congregations over the years.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
I thought that the pastor of a typical Baptist church answered to a board, made up of the flock?
John, I was determined not to respond to you anymore because the way you have gone about this!
I went back and read over the post between us. Please keep in mind that I was answering about 10-15 post in between ours.
You ask me several post back if I believed in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. This was my reply...
I asked this question:Is there a difference in Spirit within and Spirit upon in the Bible? Because many in the OT had Spirit upon, but not Spirit within, right?
This was your reply:I'll answer this when you answer whether or not you think that tongues is the sign of the baptism/fullness of the Holy Spirit, a question which I've asked at least a couple of times of you, but which remains unanswered
My reply:Fair enough! I guess neither one really knows the answer to the others question!
The answer in bold answered your question that I was not sure and did not know the answer to that question.
The point is, what kind of person becomes a member of a church, knowing they espouse a certain position regarding tongues, and then starts meeting privately with members of the church and basically teaching them that the pastor is wrong, and thereby undermining his authority in the church?
If you believe it's truth, then be public about it; give everyone, especially the pastor, the opportunity to search out the scriptures for themselves. If it's truth, then why would you have secret meetings and be deceptive about it, knowing full well you're causing a division in the church body?
If you believe it's truth, then be public about it; give everyone, especially the pastor, the opportunity to search out the scriptures for themselves. If it's truth, then why would you have secret meetings and be deceptive about it, knowing full well you're causing a division in the church body?
If you read mine testimony of my membership where I am at! THat is exactly what I did. I was up front!
You guys are putting me in this senario! THAt is why I am defensive about it!
I expressed to you what I believed in a past post:
I do believe in the authority of a pastor, so do not get me wrong on what I am fixing to say.
I do not believe in division of any sort! If these people were going JUST to cause division there motives are wrong and not of God.
I would NEVER do what John is saying this JOE person did! Therefore why would I condone it! Especially in the church! On a personal conversation in my home or theirs...the subject come up and I was asked what I believe..I would not lie to them. I would be honest and open and share just as I have here.
You completely misunderstood. John shared with you that people came into his church and did exactly what he described, and what you just condemned. He asked you if you thought it was wrong, and you wouldn't give a straight answer because you misunderstood him and assumed he was talking about you. All he was asking for was your opinion, as one who supports speaking in tongues, about other tongues speakers doing the things he described. Not you yourself, but others. You now have finally answered his question.
On how the church is run, on finances and so forth, you are right. But not on doctrine. I think I've given sufficient Scripture for that, and I could give a lot more. This presupposes, of course, a set doctrinal statement that was decided by the church body, usually before the pastor ever got there. The pastor is not allowed to teach contrary to the church's stated doctrine. (I agree that it is possible for the pastor himself to be a heretic.)But he has a responsibility from God to teach proper doctrine and protect from bad doctrine.
Let me give a real life example of how this works. One of John R. Rice's (my grandpa) hobby horses was storehouse tithing. One day in the mid 1970s he was preaching at the famous Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, a mega church of the day. (I was there that day.) In the message he got off on his hobby horse and started preaching against storehouse tithing. The pastor, saintly Dr. Lee Roberson, got up, walked over to the pulpit and said, "Dr. Rice, we teach that here, so we're not against it." Dr. Rice paused, said, "Oh, okay," and started off on another tack.
Now these two great men of God were not only close friends, they understood clearly the doctrine of the autonomy of the local church (no one has the right to teach in my church what my church is against), and the God given role of the pastor in the church (he is given charge of the church doctrine by God). The graciousness and Biblical demeanor of both men deeply impressed me that day. Who was right? You get to decide that yourself. But both men knew it was possible to split the church over that issue, and both men were spiritually careful.
Go back and read your own words. You did not answer me then. If neither of us knows the answer to the other's question, that does not mean we do not know the answer to our own question. I certainly know my own position on what you asked. I assumed you knew your own position, though you did not know mine.
Finally! This is a real answer to my question. Thank you.
This is not what you said before. You indicated it was okay for Joe to do what he did. But I'm glad to finally have a clear statement that you would not teach tongues to members of a church you were not a member of without the pastor's permission.
The Joe scenario did not happen in my church. Here is what did happen. There was a family of four believers in my church. I had counseled the father over his adultery until he trusted Christ, and seen the two children come to Christ, though the wife was already saved. I had been waiting and praying for months for the family to be baptized.
A Charismatic family which was coming to my English service (Sun. evening) became friends with this family. Without any word to me, without any notification, the Charismatic father baptized the family of four in their bathtub, then tried to teach them to speak in tongues, succeeding with the wife. The family of four left the church partly over that, would have nothing to do with me after that. Because of that I told the Charismatic family to remain limited to the English service, not to interact anymore with the church members. So they quit. I wish I had forbidden them coming as soon as I knew they were Charismatics.
This is only one of three such incidents with Charismatics I've endured as a pastor. The reason I presented the "Joe" scenario to you is that Charismatics have a terrible reputation of splitting good, Bible believing churches. Don't think that this is just my own opinion. John MacArthur wrote, "Perhaps the most serious damage done to the church by the charismatic movement has been precisely in this matter of unity. Whoknows how many thousands of churches have split over charismatic teaching? The number would surely be staggering" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 356).
But can you prove that charismatic is 100% wrong?
I do not know everything a charismatic believes! The only thing I know is that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still here! I see it in His Word and I have experienced it first hand (AND NO MY EXPERIENCE DID NOT COME FIRST AND I AM NOT BELIEVING JUST BECAUSE OF IT).
One more comment: YOu can not teach anyone how to speak in tongues, you can teach it is available, but ONLY GOD through the Holy Spirit gives the utterance! Otherwise it is not of God!
I can disprove a lot of it. Some of it is just so silly (the "laughter revival" that any thinking person can see it is wrong. Then there are the outright frauds, "healers" who use assistants roaming the crowd with secret mikes. Other teachings like your "manifestation of the Spirit" have somewhat of a Scriptural basis so that people like you cling to them. That doesn't bother me until you try to bring it into my church.
In 2012 there is a wide range of Charismatic belief. There are people like you, really on the fringe of the movement, who don't really know much about it. Then there are the radical "word of faith" (word-faith) people who are very dangerous. There are the "Latter Rain" people who believe in a latter day manifestation they call "manifest sons of God," and they should be thought of as outright heretics by everyone, though few outside the movement are aware of them. (I've seen church members confused by them in Japan.)
Question: are you absolutely sure you are right? I hope not, because that just sounds so arrogant. Have you ever read a book that opposes your view? Or did you just try to figure it all out on your own? If the latter is so, you owe it to yourself to prayerfully study books by reputable authors that carefully refute what you believe. When you do that, you will either (1) find out you are wrong, or (2) you will know better how to discuss your beliefs intelligently. (I've been surprised at how little you really seem to know about the movement. All you have is your own experience, not much real knowledge.)
I've read a bunch of books by Charismatics and talked to a bunch of them personally, including people who have become friends. I've given them a chance to change me. And I remain unconvinced about your "manifestations of the Spirit" interpretation. Too many holes in your exegesis.
You need to get out more. It happens all the time in Charismatic and old line Pentecostal churches. There are some who just never get the tongues those around them are getting. So there are techniques that people use to teach tongues to such folk. I've had a tongues speaker in the Japanese "Spirit of Jesus Church" (Iesu no Mitama Kyoukai) try to teach me to speak in tongues, and it was a psychological technique, like many of them are. I was to repeat "Lord Jesus Christ" for 30 minutes, and "That will do it!" If your experience is so real, why are there so many obvious fakes out there?
Google "how to speak in tongues" and you'll get 213,000,000 results.
NO, I answered your question! In that post that I quoted earlier in the thread! You sir are the one that never answered my question! YOu never corrected me in the fact that you knew the answer to my question.
As far as the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as evidence!
I have stated many times if not in this thread in others that tongues is not the only manifestation of the Holy Spirit! But the examples given in the scripture show that tongues were manifested each time. With the exception of Acts 19 where both tongues and prophecy were manifested. Even in Acts 8Something was manifested in order for Simeon to see!
Again, I have never denied that the false is out there! But you can not show me in scripture where the manifestation of the Holy Spirit has ceased!
I am not on the fringe of a movement unless it is the movement of the Holy Spirit, which most churches deny the power now! What I believe is in the Word of God! I have not shared anything outside the Word!
I know very little about "a movement" that I am not apart of! You ask me to go to a man's interpretation of the Word! I let the Word interprete itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit revealing It's truth!
Fair enough! I can only share.. it is up to the Holy Spirit and that person in order to believe.
Not sure about the fakes...other than satan is working overtime! There are ALOT of false preachers too! But there are also some God callled...Spirit filled ones too!
No thanks! I have no desire to hear false preachers or tongue talkers...I will stick to what the Word says about it!