Is there A Baptism In the holy Spirit For today?

[Don]

Suppose that a member lays hands on a girl in a wheelchair and prays. She gets up and walks. The church is not accustomed to laying hands on the sick, and do not believe that gifts are for today, but they keep happening. Should they change their thinking about gifts?

They should study the scriptures and pray fervently about it, yes. But the opposite is true, too: Suppose a member of a charismatic church lays hands on a girl in a wheelchair and prays, and she doesn't get up and walk. One by one, members of the charismatic church pray over this girl, but she remains in a wheelchair. Should they change their thinking about gifts?

BTW: I checked out IRIS ministries and Heidi Baker. Unfortunately, I can't find any independent corroboration of any of the healings or reviving the dead you mentioned. The charismatic publications take Ms. Baker's word that it happened, and perpetuate her stories.

 

[John of Japan]

Either. Or both. Depending on who and/or what needs correcting.

Right on. And certainly not by some non-member who comes in on his own into a local, autonomous church and starts teaching.

 

[John of Japan]

Question: Why does Heb. 6:2 mention "doctrine of baptisms"..plural?

The Greek word is not the usual one for baptism, but referred to the ceremonial washings by immersion used by the Jews. After all, it is the epistle to the Hebrews.

 

[saturneptune]

The Greek word is not the usual one for baptism, but referred to the ceremonial washings by immersion used by the Jews. After all, it is the epistle to the Hebrews.

John,
I had to do a Wednesday night Bible study on Acts 11 while the pastor is away. The subject of the Holy Spirit to me is very complex, and when a Pentecostal shows up for the Bible study, it is interesting to say the least. There are so many terms about the Holy Spirit that are used, and sometimes interchangably, such as pouring out of the Spirit, filled will the Holy Spirit, baptism in the Holy Spirit, possession of the Holy Spirit, etc, etc.

I approached the study from Acts 1:5, when Christ said the Spirit would be poured out in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and all over the earth. Pentecost to the Spirit being given to the Gentiles by the Lord was about seven or eight years. I believe there is a reference to the Spirit and Samaria in Chapter 8. These pourings out of the Spirit was followed by miracles and signs. However, I approached the study from the standpoint that from the verse, or around the verse, they were first called Christians at Antioch, that the Spriit is avaliable to all. We posses Him at the moment of salvation. Sometimes that is called baptism in the Spirit, or us in the Spirit. The othe function of the Spirit is being filled, sometimes called the Spirit in us. To me, that is a direct reflection on our walk with the Lord, and how much we listen to the Spirit convicting, guiding, etc. I believe the miracles and signs were limited to that eight year period of time. God can still perform miracles as He wills.

Your comments about how to sort out the terms and ideas about the Spirit would be appreciated.

 

[John of Japan]

John,
I had to do a Wednesday night Bible study on Acts 11 while the pastor is away. The subject of the Holy Spirit to me is very complex, and when a Pentecostal shows up for the Bible study, it is interesting to say the least. There are so many terms about the Holy Spirit that are used, and sometimes interchangably, such as pouring out of the Spirit, filled will the Holy Spirit, baptism in the Holy Spirit, possession of the Holy Spirit, etc, etc.

I approached the study from Acts 1:5, when Christ said the Spirit would be poured out in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and all over the earth. Pentecost to the Spirit being given to the Gentiles by the Lord was about seven or eight years. I believe there is a reference to the Spirit and Samaria in Chapter 8. These pourings out of the Spirit was followed by miracles and signs. However, I approached the study from the standpoint that from the verse, or around the verse, they were first called Christians at Antioch, that the Spriit is avaliable to all. We posses Him at the moment of salvation. Sometimes that is called baptism in the Spirit, or us in the Spirit. The othe function of the Spirit is being filled, sometimes called the Spirit in us. To me, that is a direct reflection on our walk with the Lord, and how much we listen to the Spirit convicting, guiding, etc. I believe the miracles and signs were limited to that eight year period of time. God can still perform miracles as He wills.

Your comments about how to sort out the terms and ideas about the Spirit would be appreciated.

First of all, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that often these terms are metaphors: baptized (not with water, but still immersed), filled (not our bodies), endued with (clothed with). I believe (comparing Acts 2:4, Mark 1:5, Luke 24:49) these all refer to the same event, the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for the purpose of winning souls (compare Acts 4:8 & 31 to ch. 2). God used these equivalent terms to give us a full picture, but they are all metaphors for God giving power for service through the Holy Spirit.

Concerning the events of Acts 10-11, I connect them with Peter receiving the keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:19). The Holy Spirit was "poured out" (11:15; another metaphor) to show that the Gentiles were equally a part of the church with the Jews. So Peter was opening the door to the Gentiles with his metaphorical keys."

Note that the tongues were not mentioned by Peter in ch. 11; they were a sign, but not an important one. They only occur one other time in Acts, so three times all together. The third time they occur (19:6), the disciples of John are introduced to the church. It happens no more. I once sat across from some "Latter Rain" Japanese Charismatics in the home of a couple in my church and asked, "How many times do tongues occur in Acts?" They said, "Five or six," and were amazed to learn it was only three.

Concerning 1 Cor. 12:13, this is a different metaphor than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 etc., because we are all baptized (immersed) into a body--which has to be the body of Christ. The term "body" does not appear in other passages. Again, all believers in this age have the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), meaning that any prayer to have the Holy Spirit given is moot.

I hope this helps.

 

[saturneptune]

First of all, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that often these terms are metaphors: baptized (not with water, but still immersed), filled (not our bodies), endued with (clothed with). I believe (comparing Acts 2:4, Mark 1:5, Luke 24:49) these all refer to the same event, the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for the purpose of winning souls (compare Acts 4:8 & 31 to ch. 2). God used these equivalent terms to give us a full picture, but they are all metaphors for God giving power for service through the Holy Spirit.

Concerning the events of Acts 10-11, I connect them with Peter receiving the keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:19). The Holy Spirit was "poured out" (11:15; another metaphor) to show that the Gentiles were equally a part of the church with the Jews. So Peter was opening the door to the Gentiles with his metaphorical keys."

Note that the tongues were not mentioned by Peter in ch. 11; they were a sign, but not an important one. They only occur one other time in Acts, so three times all together. The third time they occur (19:6), the disciples of John are introduced to the church. It happens no more. I once sat across from some "Latter Rain" Japanese Charismatics in the home of a couple in my church and asked, "How many times do tongues occur in Acts?" They said, "Five or six," and were amazed to learn it was only three.

Concerning 1 Cor. 12:13, this is a different metaphor than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 etc., because we are all baptized (immersed) into a body--which has to be the body of Christ. The term "body" does not appear in other passages. Again, all believers in this age have the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), meaning that any prayer to have the Holy Spirit given is moot.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your response. Yes, in relation to Cornelius, it only mentions miracles. Do you think the Holy Spirit was avaliable to Gentiles after Pentecost but before Chapters 9-11? Or Chapter 8 to the Samarians?

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for your response. Yes, in relation to Cornelius, it only mentions miracles. Do you think the Holy Spirit was avaliable to Gentiles after Pentecost but before Chapters 9-11? Or Chapter 8 to the Samarians?

I don't think there is a definitive answer on this, but yes I think the Spirit was available to these two groups because the prophecy in Joel 2, fulfilled in Acts 2, says "all flesh."

Have to get ready bed. It's late here in Japan. Catch you in the morning if you have any more questions.

Oyasumi nasai. ("Sleep well.") :sleeping_2:

 

[awaken]

So now after the Day of Pentecost everyone receives the Holy Spirit the moment they believe. Is this what I am understanding?

 

[awaken]

They should study the scriptures and pray fervently about it, yes. But the opposite is true, too: Suppose a member of a charismatic church lays hands on a girl in a wheelchair and prays, and she doesn't get up and walk. One by one, members of the charismatic church pray over this girl, but she remains in a wheelchair. Should they change their thinking about gifts?

BTW: I checked out IRIS ministries and Heidi Baker. Unfortunately, I can't find any independent corroboration of any of the healings or reviving the dead you mentioned. The charismatic publications take Ms. Baker's word that it happened, and perpetuate her stories.

What if we witness to a person about Jesus birth, death and resurrection? What if many from the church witness to this person and she does not accept Jesus by faith to be her savior? Do we stop believing that Jesus died for all to be saved?

 

[Don]

What if we witness to a person about Jesus birth, death and resurrection? What if many from the church witness to this person and she does not accept Jesus by faith to be her savior? Do we stop believing that Jesus died for all to be saved?

LOL. Now you've entered the calvinist/arminian debate!

 

[awaken]

LOL. Now you've entered the calvinist/arminian debate!

That was the first thing that pop in my head when I read that! As for the calvainist/arminian debate....I am not going there!

I know God called me and called me to share the gospel! If they receive the good news is not up to me!

 

[Iconoclast]

What if we witness to a person about Jesus birth, death and resurrection? What if many from the church witness to this person and she does not accept Jesus by faith to be her savior? Do we stop believing that Jesus died for all to be saved?

awaken...we believe this is taking place:

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of leading and correcting the local church for which Christ died. Read Rev. 2-3. Christ watches over His churches carefully.

You must be a Baptist if you are on this thread. If so, you are supposed to believe in the autonomy of the local church. Do you? This doctrine means that no one--not a denomination, not a pope, not a visitor or other non-member--has the right to try to change the doctrine of a local church.

I think that his point is that he holds to the holy Spirit giving revelation/wisdom/prophecy today, and that God would be correcting doctrines thru the movement of the Spirit in the local church!

 

[David Michael Harris]

For me it's about being born again,after that the Holy Spirit is in you, then we read about about certain men being full of faith and the Holy Spirit. Not Pentecostal in that I believe that something is needed after. It's what we make of it. That's my view anyway.

 

[John of Japan]

So now after the Day of Pentecost everyone receives the Holy Spirit the moment they believe. Is this what I am understanding?

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom. 8:9b).

 

[John of Japan]

I think that his point is that he holds to the holy Spirit giving revelation/wisdom/prophecy today, and that God would be correcting doctrines thru the movement of the Spirit in the local church!

I'm glad you can figure out what he means. He says one thing, then changes, says that's not what he said. :BangHead:
(Meaning awaken here, though I guess I wrote that post to plain and simple.)

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm glad you can figure out what he means. He says one thing, then changes, says that's not what he said. :BangHead:
(Meaning awaken here.)

Guess it must be the gift on onterpreting his tongues!

 

[John of Japan]

Guess it must be the gift on onterpreting his tongues!

Well, that explains everything! :type:

 

[awaken]

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom. 8:9b).

And the Spirit of Christ being...the HOly Spirit!!

 

[DHK]

And the Spirit of Christ being...the HOly Spirit!!

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?

If so, how?