Is There a difference between practicing Homosexuality and celibete?

[JesusFan]

I think there is a difference. I don't believe sexual orientation is a choice. I view homosexual orientation as resulting from a combination of heritable, hormonal, and social environmental factors.

The Holy Scriptures clearly teach that homosexual activity is a sin. How then, do we integrate these two truths?

We should start by recognizing that having a gay orientation is not a sin, but acting on those gay desires is. The solution is to help these defective people change their sexual identity and pursue a straight life. One way to do that is through Sexual Identity Therapy. That results in someone whose sexual orientation is gay, but whose sexual identity is straight. In some cases, however, celibacy may be the best option.

Think difference here on this is that some seem to be saying that IF one is saved by Grace of God, they would not ever fall back into submitting to being even tempted again in this, much less fall into it again!

I am one that says one can and will be fully forgiven by God, expected to change their view on it being sinful bewhavior now, but might still be tempted, even fall at times!

For IF Jesus saves us at that time, but IF we ven fall back at all into a sinful practice, was not really saved to start?

God forbid, for IF we say we have no sin in us, or are sinless, truth NOT in us, and IF we confess our sins, jesus will forgive and restore us from aLL inquities!

 

[Tom Butler]

I am now supposed to ask what the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic is?

Matt, I thank God for his work in your life. And I don't want to diminish the seriousness of the discussion, but your question aroused in me a desire that I can't resist--to tell this joke.

The question you asked came up in a gathering one time and a fellow answered it this way: "The difference between an alcoholic and a drunk is that the drunk doesn't have to go to the meetings."

 

[Gina B]

I think you have bought the false claim of the movement that a person can be a homosexual and not practice the sin. Homosexuality is not a condition that one has because of birth. Homosexuality is the literal practice of same sex relations. No one ever claims to be a non practicing prostitute or liar, or thief. The same with this sin. Such a claim is false. Either a person is doing it or they are not. If they are trapped in the desire they should not hold any office in any church just like someone who is battling any raging sin. That is why scripture says they must be above reproach. Not sinless, but there is nothing that can be pointed to that would bring shame on the office or the Lord.

I totally disagree. One can be of that mindset and not practice it, just as someone can be tempted to cheat on a spouse and not practice it.
Whether born that way or a product of the environment and lifestyle they were raised in doesn't matter. Everybody is born with the propensity towards sin and their weakness may be of any type, from who they're attracted to, self-control, addiction, lying, theft, anger, unforgiveness, greed, what have you.

Nobody, in their mind, is pure enough that if we were to know their mind, we'd not be able to point out some major type of sin that they fight against. The whole POINT of living like Christ is to fight the war against our own flesh.
Remember one of the most devout believers in the history of Christianity, Origen of Alexandria, that castrated himself because he took the idea of whatever offends you, ie causes you to sin, pluck it out? He apparently battled with wrong thoughts and that was his way of overcoming it.

Everyone is so sinful we are worthy of DEATH and HELL and Christ died to overcome that and still warns us over and over and over against sin and to fight against the very real, very strong temptation to sin. That temptation is always, always with every single human being with breath. If it isn't your sin, it doesn't mean it's worse than yours. No more blood was shed for someone who struggled with homosexuality than the amount shed for whatever sin it is you struggle against.

 

[freeatlast]

I totally disagree. One can be of that mindset and not practice it, just as someone can be tempted to cheat on a spouse and not practice it.
Whether born that way or a product of the environment and lifestyle they were raised in doesn't matter. Everybody is born with the propensity towards sin and their weakness may be of any type, from who they're attracted to, self-control, addiction, lying, theft, anger, unforgiveness, greed, what have you.

Nobody, in their mind, is pure enough that if we were to know their mind, we'd not be able to point out some major type of sin that they fight against. The whole POINT of living like Christ is to fight the war against our own flesh.
Remember one of the most devout believers in the history of Christianity, Origen of Alexandria, that castrated himself because he took the idea of whatever offends you, ie causes you to sin, pluck it out? He apparently battled with wrong thoughts and that was his way of overcoming it.

Everyone is so sinful we are worthy of DEATH and HELL and Christ died to overcome that and still warns us over and over and over against sin and to fight against the very real, very strong temptation to sin. That temptation is always, always with every single human being with breath. If it isn't your sin, it doesn't mean it's worse than yours. No more blood was shed for someone who struggled with homosexuality than the amount shed for whatever sin it is you struggle against.

You need to settle down and read what I wrote. My point was that no person who is battling with any sinful desire including homosexuality should hold any office in the church. The bible says the man is to be above reproach. How would you like someone to be your youth pastor who was battling pedophilia?

 

[righteousdude2]

Celibate Does not Change Ones Thought Process!

I don't believe that because a person claims to be a homosexual and celibate, makes any difference. The moniker of homosexual must be removed by the blood of Jesus, and until it is, they have done nothing but made a claim that they still believe the old way, with one difference, they say they are celibate.

Well, priests may proclaim that they are celibate, and take a both of celibacy, but, from all the recent arrests for molestation and civil law suits against the church and its celibate priests, it is clear that a good portion of those celibate priests is merely priests.

I'd prefer, they confess that they are saved by His grace, and the stripes of their past have all but passed away, and they are now a new creature in Christ.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Gina B]

You need to settle down and read what I wrote. My point was that no person who is battling with any sinful desire including homosexuality should hold any office in the church. The bible says the man is to be above reproach. How would you like someone to be your youth pastor who was battling pedophilia?

I understand that you feel nobody battling a sinful desire should hold an office in church.
I feel that "battling a sinful desire" describes every human being on this planet.

Can you honestly say you do not have a weakness that you battle against on a regular basis? I have yet to meet someone who doesn't have, at minimum, one certain sinful weakness they must remain aware of and guard against to keep under control.

Lust. Pride. Anger. There are so many possibilities.

Your example was someone who battles pedophilia but isn't practicing it working with youth. Nobody who battles this should be in a position where they work with children. Nobody who battles with pride should be a soloist. Nobody who battles against the desire to learn and grow should be a teacher. Nobody who battles with theft should manage the church's business accounts. Nobody who battles with gossip should become a counselor. The list could go on.

What I find disturbing and what works me up is picking one sin that a person finds particularly disturbing, one which I agree is sin but do find possible that a person could be born with that inclination, and using it to say that the person with that particular sin is unworthy to hold any leadership position.

 

[freeatlast]

I understand that you feel nobody battling a sinful desire should hold an office in church.
I feel that "battling a sinful desire" describes every human being on this planet.

Can you honestly say you do not have a weakness that you battle against on a regular basis? I have yet to meet someone who doesn't have, at minimum, one certain sinful weakness they must remain aware of and guard against to keep under control.

Lust. Pride. Anger. There are so many possibilities.

Your example was someone who battles pedophilia but isn't practicing it working with youth. Nobody who battles this should be in a position where they work with children. Nobody who battles with pride should be a soloist. Nobody who battles against the desire to learn and grow should be a teacher. Nobody who battles with theft should manage the church's business accounts. Nobody who battles with gossip should become a counselor. The list could go on.

What I find disturbing and what works me up is picking one sin that a person finds particularly disturbing, one which I agree is sin but do find possible that a person could be born with that inclination, and using it to say that the person with that particular sin is unworthy to hold any leadership position.

Your belief and mine is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. One who believes the bible and one who does not. The person who is put into an office is to be above reproach from any sin and I believe that and you do not. You stand against the word making excuses and I stand for it as intended.

 

[Gina B]

Your belief and mine is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. One who believes the bible and one who does not. The person who is put into an office is to be above reproach from any sin and I believe that and you do not. You stand against the word making excuses and I stand for it as intended.

There's really no arguing with that. I had hoped to bring about decent discussion concerning the idea that nobody is above reproach if we judge them based on their thoughts rather than their actions, as nobody's mind is completely pure. I don't believe my approach goes against the Bible, but if that's your opinion, so be it.

 

[Don]

Your belief and mine is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. One who believes the bible and one who does not. The person who is put into an office is to be above reproach from any sin and I believe that and you do not. You stand against the word making excuses and I stand for it as intended.

Folks, there's a reason why this particular viewpoint strikes a lot of us as ludicrous.

Wanna know what that reason is?

I'll give you a hint: It has to do with the fact that no man can know another's heart....

 

[TCassidy]

Your belief and mine is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. One who believes the bible and one who does not. The person who is put into an office is to be above reproach from any sin and I believe that and you do not. You stand against the word making excuses and I stand for it as intended.

I disagree. The difference between you and Gina is your overwhelming self-righteousness and Gina's humility.

 

[righteousdude2]

Can I Get an Amen?

I disagree. The difference between you and Gina is your overwhelming self-righteousness and Gina's humility.

....that is a bold proclamation, and one that you have hit right out of the park! Gina has always beena humble presence on the board, and she was moving in that direction, even after she was unfairly called a liberal!:tear:

 

[Aaron]

In reards to being able to hold official ministry/teaching positions within a church?

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. Your question is, is one who is so perverse as to have an unnatural sexual attraction to the same gender qualified to hold office?

No.

 

[freeatlast]

Folks, there's a reason why this particular viewpoint strikes a lot of us as ludicrous.

Wanna know what that reason is?

I'll give you a hint: It has to do with the fact that no man can know another's heart....

Don there is this new thing out there. I'll give you a hint but don't spread it around as it is a secret. Ask the one being screened for the position if they are battling any ongoing sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. So is one who has an sexual attraction to the same gender disqualified to hold office?

YES!

 

[Aaron]

In contradiction to my citation of Proverbs and to Christ's Sermon on the Mount, you asserted that "homosexuality is the literal practice of same sex relations." In other words, you said that one is not a homosexual if he isn't having sex. In the light of your error concerning the testimony of Scripture, your opinion on the qualifications of office can't be considered authoritive.

Add to that, that you have added to the office the unbiblical requirement of celibacy.

Oh, and Don is all wet. One CAN know what is in another's heart.

 

[JesusFan]

Don there is this new thing out there. I'll give you a hint but don't spread it around as it is a secret. Ask the one being screened for the position if they are battling any ongoing sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. So is one who has an sexual attraction to the same gender disqualified to hold office?

YES!

Does that mrean than ANYONE who has a "sin problem area" where they would get attacked strongly by the Enemy would NOT be qualified?

Biblically here...

IF that person has been born again to new life in Christ, and IF they are either celibete. or have "changed orientations", and are washed in the Blood, and staying irm in their conviction/walk...

Why Disqualified?

IF they realise that behavior is sinful, have been cleanses/renewed...

Still can face temptation, but choose to do right...

Why disqualified?

 

[freeatlast]

Does that mrean than ANYONE who has a "sin problem area" where they would get attacked strongly by the Enemy would NOT be qualified?

Biblically here...

IF that person has been born again to new life in Christ, and IF they are either celibete. or have "changed orientations", and are washed in the Blood, and staying irm in their conviction/walk...

Why Disqualified?

IF they realise that behavior is sinful, have been cleanses/renewed...

Still can face temptation, but choose to do right...

Why disqualified?

As usual you twist what another writes. Don't you fear God at all and what He says?
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I suppose you could just be limited in ability to comprehend what you read and you would escape that judgment but I certainly wonder.

Fist off this is about what the bible says as for qualifications for a Pastor/leader in the church. Here is what you asked;
"Is There a difference between practicing Homosexuality and celibete"
"In reards to being able to hold official ministry/teaching positions within a church?"

First I assume you mean celibate not "celibete. In regards to a person who is having battles with the desire of homosexuality they are disqualified based on the biblical qualifications. That would be true if they were having on going battles with any sin. Here is what the position requires in qualifications.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The Greek word for "blameless" means; that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable.

In other words No one can point to anything in the life of this person and make accusations they have an improper lifestyle or even hidden desires that they are covering up. It is not enough to not do a sin. If we are entertaining the sin we are guilty of the sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he

Unless the person has not overcome even the entertaining of sin as a practice they are not qualified.

 

[JesusFan]

As usual you twist what another writes. Don't you fear God at all and what He says?
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I suppose you could just be limited in ability to comprehend what you read and you would escape that judgment but I certainly wonder.

Fist off this is about what the bible says as for qualifications for a Pastor/leader in the church. Here is what you asked;
"Is There a difference between practicing Homosexuality and celibete"
"In reards to being able to hold official ministry/teaching positions within a church?"

First I assume you mean celibate not "celibete. In regards to a person who is having battles with the desire of homosexuality they are disqualified based on the biblical qualifications. That would be true if they were having on going battles with any sin. Here is what the position requires in qualifications.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The Greek word for "blameless" means; that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable.

In other words No one can point to anything in the life of this person and make accusations they have an improper lifestyle or even hidden desires that they are covering up. It is not enough to not do a sin. If we are entertaining the sin we are guilty of the sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he

Unless the person has not overcome even the entertaining of sin as a practice they are not qualified.

You forgot to quote the part where the Apostle paul though said "as some of you once were, but now ARE cleaNSED AND MADE WHOLE BY THE PRECIOS BLOOD OF jESUS cHRIST...

Also, would you actually disqualify both peter and paul, as neither were above reproach amd blameless, as peter denied His Lord, while paul killed off members of His Church?

 

[freeatlast]

You forgot to quote the part where the Apostle paul though said "as some of you once were, but now ARE cleaNSED AND MADE WHOLE BY THE PRECIOS BLOOD OF jESUS cHRIST...

Also, would you actually disqualify both peter and paul, as neither were above reproach amd blameless, as peter denied His Lord, while paul killed off members of His Church?

You really don't get it do you? :tonofbricks:

 

[TCassidy]

....that is a bold proclamation, and one that you have hit right out of the park! Gina has always beena humble presence on the board, and she was moving in that direction, even after she was unfairly called a liberal!:tear:

Gina and I have had some HUGE differences of opinion but she has always conducted herself as an outstanding example of humility and Christian love, compassion, and tolerance of the hairier gender's attacks of testosterone.

 

[TCassidy]

You really don't get it do you? :tonofbricks:

No, he doesn't. I learned a long time ago that trying to have an intelligent discussion with him was a waste of time.