Is There a difference between practicing Homosexuality and celibete?

[Don]

Oh, and Don is all wet. One CAN know what is in another's heart.

Say what you want; I'm echoing scripture. You know, that verse that says something about the heart being desperately wicked; who can know it?

Unless you're trying to say that no one's *ever* pulled the wool over your eyes, in which case, good for you. Me, I've seen a lot of people who make wonderful "first impressions," and even second ones; and then saw people later shake their heads and ask, "we never would have guessed that about him/her."

 

[Don]

Don there is this new thing out there. I'll give you a hint but don't spread it around as it is a secret. Ask the one being screened for the position if they are battling any ongoing sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. So is one who has an sexual attraction to the same gender disqualified to hold office?

YES!

Seriously? You quote this:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

and somehow think they won't lie when you ask them?

I'm sorry to say, you have more faith in the honesty of those battling sin than I apparently do. I would classify you as "idealistic" rather than "realistic."

I believe the point that Aaron was trying to make when he referred to me as being "all wet" is that you can hold a probationary period, and watch a proposed candidate (very carefully; watch where his/her eyes go, pay close attention to "little remarks," etc.), and be able to make a reasonably sound judgment about them. But to imply that simply asking someone who wants a position, and expect them to be 100% honest to you, another human...well, as scripture tells us, only God really knows our hearts.

For further clarification: I'm not saying don't ask that question; I'm saying, be realistic in your expectations when you do ask that question.

 

[JesusFan]

As usual you twist what another writes. Don't you fear God at all and what He says?
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I suppose you could just be limited in ability to comprehend what you read and you would escape that judgment but I certainly wonder.

Fist off this is about what the bible says as for qualifications for a Pastor/leader in the church. Here is what you asked;
"Is There a difference between practicing Homosexuality and celibete"
"In reards to being able to hold official ministry/teaching positions within a church?"

First I assume you mean celibate not "celibete. In regards to a person who is having battles with the desire of homosexuality they are disqualified based on the biblical qualifications. That would be true if they were having on going battles with any sin. Here is what the position requires in qualifications.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The Greek word for "blameless" means; that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable.

In other words No one can point to anything in the life of this person and make accusations they have an improper lifestyle or even hidden desires that they are covering up. It is not enough to not do a sin. If we are entertaining the sin we are guilty of the sin.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he

Unless the person has not overcome even the entertaining of sin as a practice they are not qualified.

Do you deny that the bible c;early teaches that once saved by the grace of the Lord, that it is still possible for a genuine believer to face temptation, perhaps evn 'fall into' sinning for a season?

or do you deny the Apostle John when he says that IF Chistians say that they no longer sin, are liars, but IF they sin, can confess to the Lord and br restored cleansed from ALL unrightousness?

Do you deny that the Bible teaches through paul also that SOME of us Once were "fill in the blank" but now are saved by the Cross of Christ, and therefore NO condemnation, for IF God is for us, who can be against us?

What do you think God meant in all of these verses?

 

[freeatlast]

Do you deny that the bible c;early teaches that once saved by the grace of the Lord, that it is still possible for a genuine believer to face temptation, perhaps evn 'fall into' sinning for a season?

or do you deny the Apostle John when he says that IF Chistians say that they no longer sin, are liars, but IF they sin, can confess to the Lord and br restored cleansed from ALL unrightousness?

Do you deny that the Bible teaches through paul also that SOME of us Once were "fill in the blank" but now are saved by the Cross of Christ, and therefore NO condemnation, for IF God is for us, who can be against us?

What do you think God meant in all of these verses?

"Do you deny that the bible c;early teaches that once saved by the grace of the Lord, that it is still possible for a genuine believer to face temptation, perhaps evn 'fall into' sinning for a season?"

Face temptation, yes, fall into sinning for a season, no.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

"or do you deny the Apostle John when he says that IF Chistians say that they no longer sin, are liars, but IF they sin, can confess to the Lord and br restored cleansed from ALL unrightousness?"

John did not says that. You are as usual twisting scripture. Christians has no need for restoration. We are already cleansed and We are complete in Christ

 

[JesusFan]

"Do you deny that the bible c;early teaches that once saved by the grace of the Lord, that it is still possible for a genuine believer to face temptation, perhaps evn 'fall into' sinning for a season?"

Face temptation, yes, fall into sinning for a season, no.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

"or do you deny the Apostle John when he says that IF Chistians say that they no longer sin, are liars, but IF they sin, can confess to the Lord and br restored cleansed from ALL unrightousness?"

John did not says that. You are as usual twisting scripture. Christians has no need for restoration. We are already cleansed and We are complete in Christ

So you ARE saying thata real believer can be tempted, but will never submit to it?

So the Church has misunderstood/misread the Apostle John all this time?

 

[mandym]

John did not says that. You are as usual twisting scripture. Christians has no need for restoration. We are already cleansed and We are complete in Christ

There is nothing biblical about this. Our salvation is a future promise not a current reality. Our redemption is a future event not a current experience.( 1 Peter 1;3-5) God sees that the age for our sin has been paid but that does not make us pure. (Romans 6:23)

 

[freeatlast]

There is nothing biblical about this. Our salvation is a future promise not a current reality. Our redemption is a future event not a current experience.( 1 Peter 1;3-5) God sees that the age for our sin has been paid but that does not make us pure. (Romans 6:23)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Study your Greek. Present tense continual action. We are currently saved, being saved, and will be saved. It is a current reality without all the eternal experiences.

 

[JesusFan]

There is nothing biblical about this. Our salvation is a future promise not a current reality. Our redemption is a future event not a current experience.( 1 Peter 1;3-5) God sees that the age for our sin has been paid but that does not make us pure. (Romans 6:23)

Seems that those holding to that view seem to bemixing our justification and sauctification together!

It is progressive, life long, completed at either death or second coming!

Do you see John addressing sinners, not the saints, in 1 John, as FAL does?

Still trying to see why blameless before men would refer to one having NO sin issues dealt in the past, nor having any sin issues now?

 

[freeatlast]

Still trying to see why blameless before men would refer to one having NO sin issues dealt in the past, nor having any sin issues now?

Keep searching you will see, IF you stop twisting what people say as well as scripture to hold onto your false understandings. You will have to want truth more then personal belief.

 

[JesusFan]

Keep searching you will see, IF you stop twisting what people say as well as scripture to hold onto your false understandings. You will have to want truth more then personal belief.

I keep asking you to define what your meanings are in those verses of the Apostle John, and IF you hold that one cannot commit any sins, or have any sin area issues after really getting saved?

 

[Aaron]

Me, I've seen a lot of people who make wonderful "first impressions," and even second ones; and then saw people later shake their heads and ask, "we never would have guessed that about him/her."

So, you saw what was in one's heart.

 

[mandym]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Study your Greek. Present tense continual action. We are currently saved, being saved, and will be saved. It is a current reality without all the eternal experiences.

obviously you need to go back read that again.

 

[Don]

So, you saw what was in one's heart.

No; I saw a lot of external behavior that prOvided an impression; and later saw external exhibitions when we found out what the person was really like.

 

[Aaron]

No; . . . we found out what the person was really like.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: IOW, you saw his heart.

 

[Don]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: IOW, you saw his heart.

:tongue3: No, we saw what he wanted us to see. It was only later, after the heartache and misery, that we learned what was truly in his heart. I know what you're trying to say; but keep it in the context of what freeatlast was proposing: knowing another's heart before hiring them for or allowing them to fulfill a position.

 

[freeatlast]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: IOW, you saw his heart.

Yes you can know a persons heart by how they live.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

 

[Don]

Yes you can know a persons heart by how they live.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

Then explain how Dahmer's neighbors never suspected him of a thing. Explain how catholic priests abuse children and no one knows until the now-grown men come forward to implicate them. Explain how a guy can cheat on his wife, and his closest friends be utterly surprised at his behavior. Explain how pastors of any denomination can do despicable acts, and have members of their churches make comments like "he'd never do anything like that."

The reality of this sinful, fleshly world does not match your idealism.

 

[freeatlast]

Then explain how Dahmer's neighbors never suspected him of a thing. Explain how catholic priests abuse children and no one knows until the now-grown men come forward to implicate them. Explain how a guy can cheat on his wife, and his closest friends be utterly surprised at his behavior. Explain how pastors of any denomination can do despicable acts, and have members of their churches make comments like "he'd never do anything like that."

The reality of this sinful, fleshly world does not match your idealism.

Just Believe what the passage says.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

 

[HAMel]

In many areas of our bigger cities "neighbors" don't exist as many of us who live in more rural areas come to know our neighbors. Perhaps where Dahmer lived no one knew anyone else in the building.

 

[Don]

Just Believe what the passage says.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

You're completely ignoring the point--as well as ignoring scripture. Your contention is that before allowing someone to fill a position in a church, you can simply ask them what sins they're struggling with; and you support that position with the verse you mention above.

I counter your position with the fact that the same bible that gives us the verse you referenced also tells us that the heart is desperately wicked; who can know it? And thus, someone who is willing to hide their sin, but for whatever reason wants a position in the church--whether it be to gain access to funds, or gain access to young children or young ladies, or maybe they just suffer from a pride and/or vanity problem--may be willing to lie to you about their hidden sin, to the point of leading a life that appears blameless, and you won't be able to prevent it because you don't know what's in someone else's heart until after they act on what's truly in their hearts.

Thus, your position that we can know their hearts before we put them in the position is incorrect.

And the biggest scriptural proof that you're incorrect? How long did Judas live with 11 other apostles--including Peter and John, authors of books of scripture--and they had no clue he would go the way he did?