Is this blasphemous enough for you?

[Zenas]

Yes. Or maybe she's behind it, but she is certainly between the cherubim. Only God's presence was between the cherubim.

Exodus 25:20-22 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.


Only the high priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies where the ark rested and only once a year. Mary was not a high priest and she certainly was not God.

Yes, you're quite right but this is not the Holy of Holies. This is a sanctuary in a Catholic church with a tabernacle that resembles the ark. The sanctuary is the enclosed area behind the altar. All Catholic churches have tabernacles. Most resemble a bird house or a fancy box. This one is more ornate than most and happens to resemble the ark. As for the woman, she is standing behind the tabernacle, behind the cheribum, with her hands outstretched over it.

 

[Zenas]

The woman in Rev. 12:1 is not Mary. The crown of 12 stars certainly refers to Israel (12 tribes, 12 apostles). Israel gave birth to the Messiah.

As for the rest of your post, I'm sure Catholics are taught and believe those things, but they have ripped scripture totally out of context and put them together to form a false doctrine; something cults are famous for.

(I have no animosity toward any Catholic "person". I have Catholic family members. It is the heretical doctrines the "church" teaches that I find disgusting.)

Now Amy, we know that John doesn't tell us what or who the woman represents. It has been variously held that the woman is Eve, Mary, Israel and the Church. Holding that she is Israel makes a lot of sense if you are a dispensational premillennialist. If you are not, it makes less sense. It has been said that the woman may be the focus of polyvalent symbolism, i.e., she represents several things.

It makes pretty good sense to hold that the woman is Mary. Her position as queen of Heaven has scriptural basis, so the crown with 12 stars could be hers. She really did give birth to the son who would rule with a rod of iron. And she really did escape into the desert in the flight into Egypt. Also, the name "woman" was what Jesue always called his mother.

 

[Zenas]

Well, it's already been shown that the woman in Revelation is not Mary.

As for coincidence between what John wrote and the Ark - what about it? The ark didn't carry or contain God's presence. But it was a place where God's presence would rest. Would you say the same about Jesus?

I would say that the contents of the ark all represent different aspects of Jesus. Jesus was carried in the womb of Mary, so why wouldn't Mary be compared to the ark?

 

[quantumfaith]

Wait - is that Mary sitting on the Mercy Seat?????????????

Annsi, I am by no means catholic, but a comment such as this is uncalled for.

 

[Alcott]

When I first heard the term, "mercy seat," I thought it must mean that bench that sets outside the principal's office at the school.

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you think Luke coming up with the same phraseology in connection with Mary that 2 Samuel used in connection with the ark was mere serendipity?

Do you think it is mere coincidence that John wrote that verse about the ark immediately before he wrote about the glorious woman in heaven?

The problem with evangelicals in their approach to Mary is that they so much want to put distance between themselves and Catholicism that they will reject the obvious sometimes just because it is Maryology. It wasn't so with the early Protestants, all of whom held Mary in high esteem.

Zenas, yes for we who are protestants, that is the proper place for Mary, a position of high esteem (highly favored). God certainly had his reasons for choosing Mary for this honor. And some of us protestants understand the distinction that most catholics have, one of veneration of Mary, not worship of Mary. And furthermore, some of protestants can say "catholic" without using the qualifier "apostate".

 

[annsni]

Annsi, I am by no means catholic, but a comment such as this is uncalled for.

What comment and why is it uncalled for. I saw a picture and asked a question. No comment although I had a LOT running through my head when I saw it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Her position as queen of Heaven has scriptural basis, so the crown with 12 stars could be hers. She really did give birth to the son who would rule with a rod of iron. And she really did escape into the desert in the flight into Egypt. Also, the name "woman" was what Jesue always called his mother.

The title "Queen of Heaven" is Babylonian not Christian.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Jer 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Jer 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

Nowhere in Scripture does God ever refer to Mary as "The Queen of Heaven." However, when the apostate churches embraced the Babylonians holidays they also embraced the Babylonian Queen of Heaven, The Madonna as she was also called and applied the pagan terminology and attributes to Mary. In reality Rome is nothing more than Christianized Babylon worship with the Babylonian college of Cardinals and Babylon High Preist which the Pope wears the exact same pontif crown saying the exact same words. The whole Catholic Tradition is but christianized paganism mixed with the Old Covenant Priesthood characteristics and Old Covenant ceremonial legalism.

 

[quantumfaith]

What comment and why is it uncalled for. I saw a picture and asked a question. No comment although I had a LOT running through my head when I saw it.

Wait - is that Mary sitting on the Mercy Seat?????????????

I have never seen or heard of any catholic brother/sister in Christ claiming that Mary is sitting on the Mercy Seat. Now if that is some heretofore doctrine of the Catholic church unknown to me, then you have my apologies for raising the issue.

 

[annsni]

Wait - is that Mary sitting on the Mercy Seat?????????????

I have never seen or heard of any catholic brother/sister in Christ claiming that Mary is sitting on the Mercy Seat. Now if that is some heretofore doctrine of the Catholic church unknown to me, then you have my apologies for raising the issue.

Did you see the photograph? If not, here it is again.

http://www.amothersplea.org/

Note that her hands are in front of part of the ark. I see her sitting on the Mercy Seat but I wanted to see if I really was seeing what I'm seeing.

 

[quantumfaith]

My apologies, I did not see the photograph.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus had sisters too.....so are you gonna say "The Sisters of God"???

 

[Zenas]

The title "Queen of Heaven" is Babylonian not Christian.

Dr. Walter, I said her position as queen of Heaven has scriptural basis. I said nothing about her title, which indeed has roots in Mesopotamian lore. Queen of Heaven, however, seems an appropriate title for Mary’s position.

Beginning with Solomon, we see that the queen was not the king’s wife but was his mother. Bathsheba reigned with Solomon on a throne at his side.

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. 1 Kings 2:19.

The king’s mother even enjoyed the title of “queen mother.” See 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Kings 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16. As you read through the chronology of the kings in the Davidic dynasty, you will see that the king's mother was always named along with the king.

Jesus Christ is the culmination of the Davidic kingdom and He reigns in Heaven. Therefore, it would only be fitting and natural for His mother to reign along with Him as the queen mother. This is the basis of the Catholic doctrine concerning Mary as Queen of Heaven. She is also sometimes called Queen of Angels and Saints. Therefore, Mary’s position is not a rip off of Mesopotamian lore, but rather has a scriptural foundation.

 

[mcdirector]

I think that if Mary were here with us, she would be mortified at the position to which she's been exalted.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Dr. Walter, I said her position as queen of Heaven has scriptural basis. I said nothing about her title, which indeed has roots in Mesopotamian lore. Queen of Heaven, however, seems an appropriate title for Mary’s position.

Beginning with Solomon, we see that the queen was not the king’s wife but was his mother. Bathsheba reigned with Solomon on a throne at his side. The king’s mother even enjoyed the title of “queen mother.” See 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Kings 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16. As you read through the chronology of the kings in the Davidic dynasty, you will see that the king's mother was always named along with the king.

Jesus Christ is the culmination of the Davidic kingdom and He reigns in Heaven. Therefore, it would only be fitting and natural for His mother to reign along with Him as the queen mother. This is the basis of the Catholic doctrine concerning Mary as Queen of Heaven. She is also sometimes called Queen of Angels and Saints. Therefore, Mary’s position is not a rip off of Mesopotamian lore, but rather has a scriptural foundation.

You make no "SPIRITUAL" scene......and thats why it "seems appropriate" to you. This wisdom "reasoning" however is demonic and earthly and does not come from above. If you wana insist on believing a lie God will hook you up! 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies."

 

[Amy.G]

D
Jesus Christ is the culmination of the Davidic kingdom and He reigns in Heaven. Therefore, it would only be fitting and natural for His mother to reign along with Him as the queen mother. This is the basis of the Catholic doctrine concerning Mary as Queen of Heaven. She is also sometimes called Queen of Angels and Saints. Therefore, Mary’s position is not a rip off of Mesopotamian lore, but rather has a scriptural foundation.

Zenas, the bible does not speak anywhere of Mary as queen or her reigning in heaven.

It is the saints that reign with Christ.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Zenas]

I think that if Mary were here with us, she would be mortified at the position to which she's been exalted.

Hard to say but I won't take issue with that. However, you should keep in mind Luke 1:48. I don't think evangelicals observe this. In fact they take every opportunity to minimize Mary's importance. Why do you think that is?

 

[Amy.G]

Hard to say but I won't take issue with that. However, you should keep in mind Luke 1:48. I don't think evangelicals observe this. In fact they take every opportunity to minimize Mary's importance. Why do you think that is?

I don't think that's a fair statement. We don't exalt Mary the way that Catholics do. There is no doubt they worship her. It is plain in their catacisms and in their statues as I showed in the OP.

Mary was chosen of God and that sets Mary apart from most women. But don't forget about other women of the bible who were obedient to God as well, such as Hannah or Ruth.

 

[Zenas]

You make no "SPIRITUAL" scene....

I have no idea what you mean by this.

...and thats why it "seems appropriate" to you. This wisdom "reasoning" however is demonic and earthly and does not come from above. If you wana insist on believing a lie God will hook you up! 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies."

One thing I didn't say about Mary being queen of Heaven is that it fits in perfectly with Revelation 12:1.

• "clothed with the sun" I don't know exactly what that means but this is a glorious highly exalted woman.
• "the moon under her feet" If the moon is beneath her, she is higher than the heavens.
• "on her head a crown of twelve stars" She's wearing a crown. That's what queens do.

If you're looking for scriptural support rather than reasonig, here it is.

Jedi, I'm not unmindful of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 but it is you, not me, who is the victim of deceit here. People have venerated Mary for the entire history of the Christian Church. It has only been in the last 300 or 400 years that people have started looking for ways to besmirch her reputation. I don't want to be put in the position of meeting Mary in Heaven and having her ask me point blank, "Why didn't you call me blessed?"

 

[Zenas]

I don't think that's a fair statement. We don't exalt Mary the way that Catholics do. There is no doubt they worship her. It is plain in their catacisms and in their statues as I showed in the OP.

Mary was chosen of God and that sets Mary apart from most women. But don't forget about other women of the bible who were obedient to God as well, such as Hannah or Ruth.

What is unfair about it? When is the last time you spoke up for the mother of our Lord? I'm not saying that we say she was bad or anything like that, but how often do we even acknowledge her? Several years ago, Lifeway did a series of lessons on Godly women of the Bible and Mary wasn't even on the list. That is the kind of thing I'm talking about.