Is this blasphemous enough for you?

[annsni]

All of these things are also true of the saints and apostles in Catholicism.

I don't see a problem with naming churches and cathedrals after Mary or the apostles. Do we also have a problem with Moody Church?

Are there statues of DL Moody on the altar? Are there candles before the statue? Do people bow and pray to him? THAT is a different story.

Regarding the bowing, Catholics claim that these are not acts of worship to Mary and the saints but instead is "veneration" or respect, sort of like bowing to the Queen. That is the official Catholic stance which I think might be fine except not all run-of-the-mill Catholics actually practice this. Then again, not all baptists hold to correct doctrine either.

Yes, they say they are not worshipping but what would be the difference between what they do and worship?

Regarding the prayers, Catholics claim that they are not praying to Mary and the saints but are asking them to pray for them, similar to you asking your pastor to pray for you. Again, this is the official Catholic stance which I think might be fine ... blah, blah, blah.

However, my pastor can hear me. The dead cannot hear the requests of every person on earth unless two things: They are ever present (present to hear the requests of people around the world at the same time) and ever knowing (because not everyone prays out loud so they would need to be able to read people's minds or know what they are saying. Last I checked, omnipresence and omniscience are qualities of God, not man.

 

[annsni]

I'm not supporting Mariology in this discussion however I must bring up a significant questions. The angel Gabriel said: Luke 1:28 and then later Mary upon hearing her role replied And even later when visiting her cousin Liz She said this (always accepted prophetically) So with this in mind is scripture lying when prophetically Mary says "all generations will call her blessed"? I say this because I never hear protestants of any denominations saying this. In fact she's often over looked. Also If Peter and Paul were to be examples and Paul requested that we be like him why not Mary? I mean She was obedient without questioning God and likely understanding the ramifications of having done so like being stoned to death. And the angel of God proclaims that Mary is Highly favored. IT seems to me that Christians favor Israel for God favoring them. It seems to me that Christians favor the apostles because they were favored by God. But God forbid that we favor Mary? Is that the way of it? It seems to me that some Catholics make too much of Mary and Protestants make too little of Mary. And Baptist conviently ignore her altogether. I believe that Mary is to be an example for all faithful and we should follow in her footsteps. So I don't have any more a problem of a church being named after her as churches are named after apostles. However, I consede that baptist churches don't have this problem. Yet to be consistent in our critizism we must critize the presbyterians, anglicans, lutherans, episcopals, etc for giving names to Churches like St. John, or St. Peters, or St. Pauls. Otherwize I find no fault by naming churches.

The name of the church is not the issue. It's what is going on inside that is the issue.

But as for Mary, of course all Baptists think Mary was blessed and she was specially chosen by God for a great thing - to bear His Son. No one else in history had that role and of course Mary was a blessed woman. However, we do not need to focus on Mary because, while she was blessed, she was a sinful woman who died and is in heaven just like any other person who has lived and had faith in Jesus Christ and died. She has a great place in history but not in our faith today or in the way we approach our faith or how we approach God. She is not a mediator between me and Jesus as the Catholic church says. That's just not Biblical.

Also what you fail to understand with Catholics is that prayers are offered to all the saints not Just Mary. Primarily for this reason they hold to the communion of Saints. With the belief that all christians whether present with us or present with God are still apart of the Body. And being such they are participating much like we do on earth with prayers for those who need it. So its not singular with Mary though it seems you've mentioned this as though it were. So then the question seems to be how participative are Christians who are in the presence of God are? And why wouldn't they make petitions for us before God? Are they so self centered that they stopped caring for those here? These are just some questions.

Well, last I checked, the topic of this thread was Mary, not the apostles. But I will apply the same statements to the praying to the apostles. As for your questions - in order to know the prayers of the saints, they would have to all knowing and ever present, as I mentioned above. I do not see any support in Scripture of those in heaven knowing what was going on on earth and making intercession to God. It's just not there.

I suggest that some Catholics have made mary into a God though this is not the teaching of the church no more than I know baptist who go to church while fornicators but it isn't the teaching of the Church. To be intellectually honest we must go by what the Catholic Church actually teaches with regard to Mary and they insist she is not a God.

The teachings of the church DO put Mary into a god. Yes, they say she is not a god but they do have her as being a co-mediatrix, being prayed to, being bowed to, having great power, being able to influence Jesus' work, etc. THAT is a god to me.

 

[DHK]

I'm not supporting Mariology in this discussion however I must bring up a significant questions. The angel Gabriel said: Luke 1:28 and then later Mary upon hearing her role replied And even later when visiting her cousin Liz She said this (always accepted prophetically) So with this in mind is scripture lying when prophetically Mary says "all generations will call her blessed"? I say this because I never hear protestants of any denominations saying this.

I never hear them say anything about Deborah either:

(DRB) Blessed among women be Jahel, the wife of Haber the Cinite, and blessed be she in her tent. (Darby)

The Bible says almost the same thing about Deborah. Is it such a big thing to crow about? She was blessed; yes. She was a vessel used of God in that period of time in history. God chose to use her. Face it. God could have chose to use one of many different virgins at that time. But he chose to use Mary. There were other virgins that would have fit the same criteria, I am sure. The Catholics are bent on Mariolatry, no matter what the case.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Are there statues of DL Moody on the altar? Are there candles before the statue? Do people bow and pray to him? THAT is a different story.

Great, so we agree that the naming of a church or cathedral after Mary or the saints is not a problem.

Yes, they say they are not worshipping but what would be the difference between what they do and worship?

I assume you meant the difference between what they say and do.

I would say that Catholics who hold to correct Catholic theology on this issue would not be worshipping while Catholics who do not hold to correct Catholic theology on this issue might be worshipping.

However, my pastor can hear me. The dead cannot hear the requests of every person on earth unless two things: They are ever present (present to hear the requests of people around the world at the same time) and ever knowing (because not everyone prays out loud so they would need to be able to read people's minds or know what they are saying. Last I checked, omnipresence and omniscience are qualities of God, not man.

Have you ever lost a close loved one? Maybe you have never "talked" to your dead loved ones with the belief that they can hear you, but I'm sure many Christian non-Catholics do. Can the loved one hear them? I don't know. Is there anything wrong with thinking that they can? I would say no.

 

[annsni]

Great, so we agree that the naming of a church or cathedral after Mary or the saints is not a problem.

Well, maybe not so much. What do we do with "The Cathedral of St. John the Divine"?

I assume you meant the difference between what they say and do.

I would say that Catholics who hold to correct Catholic theology on these issues would not be worshipping while Catholics who do not hold to correct Catholic theology would be worshipping.

No - what is the difference between what they are doing (bowing down before statues, lighting candles before statues, praying to, requesting favors of, expecting responses from, expecting mediation between me and God, etc.) and worship?


[quote[Have you ever lost a close loved one? Maybe you have never "talked" to your dead loved ones with the belief that they can hear you, but I'm sure many Christian non-Catholics do. Can the loved one hear them? I don't know. Is there anything wrong with thinking that they can? I would say no.[/QUOTE]

If my mother could hear me AND hear my brother at the same time, then she would be in more than one place at a time. Who can do that? God. There is no where in Scripture where ANYONE, even angels can be in more than one place at a time besides God.

 

[Gold Dragon]

What do we do with "The Cathedral of St. John the Divine"?

The divine in this instance is not about spiritual divinity but it is an old english meaning of the word divine meaning "theologian". All the St. John the Divine churches are Anglican or Episcopal since this an english name.

Online Etymology Dictionary

divine (n.)
c.1300, "soothsayer," from O.Fr. devin, from L. divinus (adj.); see divine (adj.). Meaning "ecclesiastic, theologian" is from late 14c.

No - what is the difference between what they are doing (bowing down before statues, lighting candles before statues, praying to, requesting favors of, expecting responses from, expecting mediation between me and God, etc.) and worship?

Attitude.
Japanese who bow as a greeting to each other are not worshiping each other.
People who have memorials for dead loved ones with candles lit in front of a photograph are not worshiping them.
People who "talk" to dead love ones and hope they can hear them and maybe put in a good word for them with God are not worshiping them.

If my mother could hear me AND hear my brother at the same time, then she would be in more than one place at a time. Who can do that? God. There is no where in Scripture where ANYONE, even angels can be in more than one place at a time besides God.

I don't think it is a requirement to believe that our dead loved one is omnipresent or omniscient to believe that they can hear us when we "talk" to them.

 

[annsni]

Attitude.
Japanese who bow as a greeting to each other are not worshiping each other.
People who have memorials for dead loved ones with candles lit in front of a photograph are not worshiping them.
People who "talk" to dead love ones and hope they can hear them and maybe put in a good word for them with God are not worshiping them.

But when they place them in a very high place of honor and esteem, expect them to change the course of nature and make "sacrifices" to them, then I do think it's worship.

I don't think it is a requirement to believe that our dead loved one is omnipresent or omniscient to believe that they can hear us when we "talk" to them.

Why not? If they are not everywhere and know everything, then how can they hear us?

 

[Gold Dragon]

But when they place them in a very high place of honor and esteem, expect them to change the course of nature and make "sacrifices" to them, then I do think it's worship.

Like I said before, if they have an incorrect understanding of Catholic theology like your example, then yes, they are worshiping.

Why not? If they are not everywhere and know everything, then how can they hear us?

Like I said before, I don't know if our dead loved ones can hear us.

But people who believe they can, do not usually believe their loved ones are omnipresent and omniscient. Just that they can hear them not knowing how that works.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The name of the church is not the issue. It's what is going on inside that is the issue.

Fair to say. However, it seems you mentioned the naming the church was a problem that you had.

But as for Mary, of course all Baptists think Mary was blessed and she was specially chosen by God for a great thing - to bear His Son.

Yet, when was the last time apart from you on this thread have you heard a compliment or a blessing directed towards Jesus' mother? And do you not consider her a great example of faithfulness that we should immitate?

No one else in history had that role and of course Mary was a blessed woman. However, we do not need to focus on Mary because, while she was blessed, she was a sinful woman who died and is in heaven just like any other person who has lived and had faith in Jesus Christ and died.

But we focus on John Smyth, Warren Buffett as examples? It doesn't seem we give her equal standing. Why not?

She has a great place in history but not in our faith today

Why not? I for one would like to be as obedient to God's call as she was.

or in the way we approach our faith or how we approach God

Didn't she have a great approach to God as we see in her visit to Liz?

She is not a mediator between me and Jesus as the Catholic church says. That's just not Biblical.

So, (to play advocate here) you cannot mediate for me? So, its pointless for me to go to you and ask you to intercede for me? Why do our churches even have prayer request since they cannot mediate for me in any way? Or is there a distinguishing thing between Jesus who mediates for me and you? I mean james must be lying when he says to pray for one another. And if James is lying then the bible is lying and people cannot pray for each other which is the same as mediating. I don't think the catholics believe Mary mediates sins in our lives as Jesus does. But they believe she prays for us. Then the question becomes relevant. Do saints in God's presense pray for us? Do they even care?

Well, last I checked, the topic of this thread was Mary, not the apostles.

To be intellectually honest they must be brought in the discussion because the same action is accorded to them.

But I will apply the same statements to the praying to the apostles.

Consistent

As for your questions - in order to know the prayers of the saints, they would have to all knowing and ever present, as I mentioned above

Not at all. I know this missionary in Indonesia who is in hospital. I at the same time know a missionary in Kenya who lost a parent. I am in neither place but I know about these people and their needs. How? I've been given the information. Wouldn't the same go for the saints living in God's presence? I think this is how it is seen.

I do not see any support in Scripture of those in heaven knowing what was going on on earth and making intercession to God. It's just not there.

Fair, but it doesn't say it doesn't happen either. Speculative to be sure. Yet what do you think happens? We go to heaven thumb our nose to those still hear and say "see you latter suckers!" Or being reborn in the image of Christ do we empathize and pray for those here? I think its a valuable question.

The teachings of the church DO put Mary into a god.

Show me.

Yes, they say she is not a god but they do have her as being a co-mediatrix

no different then you and I being mediators for others and didn't she participate in the incarnation? Or did God force it upon her? By the way I don't think catholics use co-mediatrix that would indicate two women mediating. Mediatrix would be their term.

being prayed to, being bowed to, having great power, being able to influence Jesus' work, etc. THAT is a god to me.

Is it wrong for me to talk to you? which is the term pray (vehicle of communication to people, God, and anything else depending on context) means. As in pray tell, Or Pray mom would you let me go? or I pray thee well? Or I lift up my prayers to God. Language is of the essense and often misapplied depending on context. Just some more thoughts

 

[annsni]

Fair to say. However, it seems you mentioned the naming the church was a problem that you had.

It's not the naming of the church but the dedication of the church to the person named.

Yet, when was the last time apart from you on this thread have you heard a compliment or a blessing directed towards Jesus' mother?

Well, usually we are preaching the Gospel and how to follow Scripture - not to venerate individuals in the Bible. Additionally, how much of the Bible is written to talk about Mary? We see her in the birth of Christ and a couple of times after that but that's about it. None of the epistles mention her. So why should we worry about the frequency of blessings or compliments? If God chose to not give her extra attention in His Word, then what does that say?

And do you not consider her a great example of faithfulness that we should immitate? But we focus on John Smyth, Warren Buffett as examples? It doesn't seem we give her equal standing. Why not? Why not? I for one would like to be as obedient to God's call as she was.

Focus on John Smyth and Warren Buffet?? I don't know what kind of church you go to but I don't know that I've ever even heard those names mentioned in my church. No, usually we talk about....God.

Didn't she have a great approach to God as we see in her visit to Liz?

What makes her approach any different than any other person in God's history? Yes, God chose her to carry the body of His Son, but what of it? She accepted the call. Don't we all accept God's call as believers?

So, (to play advocate here) you cannot mediate for me?

Nope I can't.

So, its pointless for me to go to you and ask you to intercede for me?

I can pray for you but I cannot mediate for you.

Why do our churches even have prayer request since they cannot mediate for me in any way?

Because we are told to pray for one another. In no way are we mediating - or going between a person and God. There is ONE mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ.

Or is there a distinguishing thing between Jesus who mediates for me and you?

Jesus mediates. I pray.

I mean james must be lying when he says to pray for one another. And if James is lying then the bible is lying and people cannot pray for each other which is the same as mediating.

Show me where praying and mediating is the same thing.

I don't think the catholics believe Mary mediates sins in our lives as Jesus does.

She mediates between us and Jesus. She can influence her Son because she's His mother. That's what the Catholic church says. We don't have as much influence on Him as His mother does. However, is that what the Bible says?

But they believe she prays for us. Then the question becomes relevant. Do saints in God's presense pray for us? Do they even care?

Show me Scripture where the dead pray for the living. Where the dead hear the prayers of the saints and mediate between them and God.

To be intellectually honest they must be brought in the discussion because the same action is accorded to them. Consistent Not at all. I know this missionary in Indonesia who is in hospital. I at the same time know a missionary in Kenya who lost a parent. I am in neither place but I know about these people and their needs. How? I've been given the information.

Because you are alive.

Wouldn't the same go for the saints living in God's presence? I think this is how it is seen.

Show me Scripture.

Fair, but it doesn't say it doesn't happen either. Speculative to be sure. Yet what do you think happens? We go to heaven thumb our nose to those still hear and say "see you latter suckers!" Or being reborn in the image of Christ do we empathize and pray for those here? I think its a valuable question.

When I'm sitting in the presence of Holy God Almighty, I don't think I'll be watching the TV screen of what's happening on earth. Do you really think you will?

Show me.

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/novena/

no different then you and I being mediators for others and didn't she participate in the incarnation?

She was a part of the incarnation but did she participate - as in did she do anything to merit the role or did she do anything to bring on the incarnation? No. She accepted God's choosing. That's all.

Or did God force it upon her?

Did God ask her to do this?

By the way I don't think catholics use co-mediatrix that would indicate two women mediating. Mediatrix would be their term.

co-Mediatrix is the term they use. It's not two women mediating but that Mary, along with Jesus, mediates for us with God.

Is it wrong for me to talk to you? which is the term pray (vehicle of communication to people, God, and anything else depending on context) means. As in pray tell, Or Pray mom would you let me go? or I pray thee well? Or I lift up my prayers to God. Language is of the essense and often misapplied depending on context. Just some more thoughts

One word has many meanings. Yes, we use the same term "pray" as in "pray tell" but that is not the usage in this context. The context that we use as Christians praying is "to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer." You cannot compare that to "to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing." They are different things because I can pray and not make an entreaty or supplication to God. I enter into spiritual communication with Him which is more than just "pray" to a person here.

 

[Zenas]

If my mother could hear me AND hear my brother at the same time, then she would be in more than one place at a time. Who can do that? God. There is no where in Scripture where ANYONE, even angels can be in more than one place at a time besides God.

I am fully aware that many, perhaps most, people here believe we will have no powers in the life hereafter that we don’t have here. We will only be able to see and hear those things within our line of sight and our hearing range. We will only be able to be in one place at a time, etc. I have previously referred to this as a pedestrian view of Heaven and I don’t think it is an accurate view of Heaven.

The fact is that the Bible doesn’t say what we will be like. It only says we will be “changed.” 1 Cor. 15:51-52. It is also clear that we will enjoy immortality. Beyond that, the Bible doesn’t say much.

However, the Bible doesn’t attribute the qualities of omniscience and omnipresence exclusively to God and it is not unreasonable to think we will enjoy these gifts. We certainly have reason to believe Heaven is a place where time as we know it does not exist. If there is no time, there would be no hindrance to the hearing and acting on millions of prayers during the course of a day. Immortality is a God-like quality and if we have that, why wouldn’t we have other God-like qualities? After all, the only quality that belongs exclusively to God is the ability to create something out of nothing.

That is why I believe the Communion of Saints is a doctrine that may have merit. It really comes down to what is your concept of what powers we will have after we leave this earth. If you have a pedestrian concept of Heaven, then you cannot possibly believe in the Communion of Saints. However, if you have a soaring expansive concept of Heaven, the Communion of Saints is normal and natural.

 

[annsni]

However, the Bible doesn’t attribute the qualities of omniscience and omnipresence exclusively to God and it is not unreasonable to think we will enjoy these gifts.

Can you show me where anyone else shared in these attributes?

We certainly have reason to believe Heaven is a place where time as we know it does not exist. If there is no time, there would be no hindrance to the hearing and acting on millions of prayers during the course of a day. Immortality is a God-like quality and if we have that, why wouldn’t we have other God-like qualities? After all, the only quality that belongs exclusively to God is the ability to create something out of nothing.

Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence are three qualities that only God has as well.

That is why I believe the Communion of Saints is a doctrine that may have merit. It really comes down to what is your concept of what powers we will have after we leave this earth. If you have a pedestrian concept of Heaven, then you cannot possibly believe in the Communion of Saints. However, if you have a soaring expansive concept of Heaven, the Communion of Saints is normal and natural.

If I have a Biblical view of heaven, I think it will be glorious and awesome to be in the presence of God and I won't be worrying about the things of this world. God's a bit more exciting than earth, don't you think?

 

[Zenas]

Can you show me where anyone else shared in these attributes?

No, can you show me where these are exclusive attributes of God?

Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence are three qualities that only God has as well.

Omnipotence, yes. Omnicience, maybe. Omnipresence, I think not. Even today, Ann, bound by our earthly bodies and by the limits of space and time, we can for all practical purposes be in more than one place at a time. About a month ago, I was in a meeting where some of us were in one city and another group were in a city more than 100 miles away. We were connected by TV screens and sound projectors. I knew everything that was going on in the other location and with my image projected there, I was virtually there. So omnipresence is not that big a deal. The Bible does not contradict these ideas. All you can say is that it isn't in the Bible but neither is there any prophecy of automobiles, computers or space travel. (Actually there is some prophecy of the automobile. "They were in one Accord." :laugh:

If I have a Biblical view of heaven, I think it will be glorious and awesome to be in the presence of God and I won't be worrying about the things of this world. God's a bit more exciting than earth, don't you think?

Happy, ignorant and impotent? I think I want more than that.

 

[annsni]

No, can you show me where these are exclusive attributes of God?

Yep - the fact that they are ONLY attributed to God does it for me.

Omnipotence, yes. Omnicience, maybe. Omnipresence, I think not. Even today, Ann, bound by our earthly bodies and by the limits of space and time, we can for all practical purposes be in more than one place at a time. About a month ago, I was in a meeting where some of us were in one city and another group were in a city more than 100 miles away. We were connected by TV screens and sound projectors. I knew everything that was going on in the other location and with my image projected there, I was virtually there. So omnipresence is not that big a deal.

But you were not there, were you? And we're not talking about virtual and we're not talking about technology. We're not even talking about the same plane of existence!

The Bible does not contradict these ideas. All you can say is that it isn't in the Bible but neither is there any prophecy of automobiles, computers or space travel. (Actually there is some prophecy of the automobile. "They were in one Accord." :laugh:
Happy, ignorant and impotent? I think I want more than that.

Well then you want to be God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's not the naming of the church but the dedication of the church to the person named.

I have no problem with either. I've seen churches dedicated to all sorts of people and causes. To me its an irrelevant issue one way or another and it should be to all Christians to be honest. But dedicated or not its not the person who is being worshiped but God. That person is just being honored or remembered.

Well, usually we are preaching the Gospel and how to follow Scripture - not to venerate individuals in the Bible.

It doesn't say not to venerate people in the bible. Often people are venerated in the bible. Gideon, Joshua, Deborah, Esther, etc...

Additionally, how much of the Bible is written to talk about Mary?

How much is writen about Jair?

We see her in the birth of Christ and a couple of times after that but that's about it

I'd like to drop the word obedience in here a rare trait among men.

None of the epistles mention her.

Epistles have a specific perpose to the people whom they are writen no need to write about Mary. usually they are dealing with simple things like "STOP SINNING!" or "DON't FAVOR RICH PEOPLE" or "STOP LISTENING TO THE JUDIAZERS" Etc... Discussion of Mary seems a little beyond that.

So why should we worry about the frequency of blessings or compliments?

The fact that she should be honored as the bible suggest just like the lady with the Jar of Oil should be honored everytime the story is told.

If God chose to not give her extra attention in His Word, then what does that say?

The fact she's in there is special attention and the fact that she's Jesus' mother is special unless of course Jesus isn't special. Also what does it say about her? Obedient.

Focus on John Smyth and Warren Buffet?? I don't know what kind of church you go to but I don't know that I've ever even heard those names mentioned in my church. No, usually we talk about....God.

Southern Baptist church that has a 40 day study on just about everything (thanks rick warren ;-)). I've heard sermons on wonderful missionaries who have passed on but had shared the gospel in the most diverse circumstances. These are given more respect than the lords mom. Look at DHK's answer. Any virgin would do. Really? I'd rather doubt that. I suppose any woman would do as his wife. Thats a poor view of women in general. I'd rather doubt God had such a lax attitude about whom he chose. I believe women should be held in hire regard than that and the woman chosen by God should be special not just any mo around. But a faithful, obdient servant, who loved God dearly. Just like I wouldn't have chosen just any woman to have my children. Though unfortunately maybe I'm singular in that. There are many men who feel any woman is good enough. I just have one thing to say about that 51% divorse rate!

What makes her approach any different than any other person in God's history?

Nothing but it shows her heart much like David's who was a man after God's own heart. Both should be honored and imitated.

Yes, God chose her to carry the body of His Son, but what of it?

Yeah, maybe God should have used a protitute it would go a lot further in inclusion of sinners. ;-)

She accepted the call. Don't we all accept God's call as believers?

What did it cost you? But essentially we all do. Though in my life I tend to be closer to Zachariah than Mary.

I can pray for you but I cannot mediate for you.

Same thing. Mediate

acting through an intervening agency

Intersessory prayers fall into this catagory.

Because we are told to pray for one another. In no way are we mediating - or going between a person and God. There is ONE mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ.

Yes in which you are "acting through an intervening agency". It is only Jesus however that can cancel out our sins. So you have to be specific on what you mean by mediate. I can mediate for you by making request before God.

Jesus mediates. I pray.

As I've shown. same thing save it is our sins he deals with you are making intersession which is mediation.

Show me where praying and mediating is the same thing.

I have you are acting on my behalf thus "acting thorugh an intervening agency" even moses did this before God with the snakes.

She mediates between us and Jesus. She can influence her Son because she's His mother. That's what the Catholic church says.

Yes they do. Just like the prayers of an effective man avails much. Same consept.

We don't have as much influence on Him as His mother does.

I don't see that anywhere taught by the Catholic church. Not in any of their documents.

However, is that what the Bible says?

Repent and be baptized everyone of you.

Show me Scripture where the dead pray for the living.

Its not in scripture. I've said its speculation but what do you think happens when we go before God? Are we so self centered that we say "Sorry chap. I'm in heaven and your still in your sucky life? I doubt it. Note the parrable of Jesus where the rich man calls up to Lazerus. I don't think Lazerus was doing nothing. The prayers of the saints are lifted up like incense in a discription in Rev. The white clad martyrs are calling out for justice. There seems to be a lot of communal activity in heaven.

Because you are alive

.
So when I'm dead I'm in nihilo? No. I believe in the resurrection and life everlasting. I don't believe I will ever die. My body will but I have everlasting life. When your body dies are you no longer existant?

When I'm sitting in the presence of Holy God Almighty, I don't think I'll be watching the TV screen of what's happening on earth. Do you really think you will?

I think I will be praying for the deliverance of all those who belong to God because I will take on his likeness and will be more conserned about the entire body of Christ than myself. Though I believe I will also be offering paise and adoration before God. I believe I will be active even as his angels are active making constant request before God on our behalf.

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/novena/

I don't think that apparition is canon in the Catholic Church. By the way where does it say mary is god?

She was a part of the incarnation but did she participate - as in did she do anything to merit the role or did she do anything to bring on the incarnation?

No one ever said she merited anything. However, I will not diminish her role in the incarnation. Just like I won't diminish Joshuas role in bringing down the walls of Jericho. Joshua participated in that salvation did he not? But all glory for it goes to God. Thus the incarnation.

she accepted God's choosing. That's all.

That's all? its a rare thing indeed. Something to be called praise worthy don't you think. To obey God like that? I wish I would be more that way.

co-Mediatrix is the term they use. It's not two women mediating but that Mary, along with Jesus, mediates for us with God.

I co mediate too. Its my job to pray for others.

One word has many meanings. Yes, we use the same term "pray" as in "pray tell" but that is not the usage in this context. The context that we use as Christians praying is "to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer."

Yep we all agree on this.

You cannot compare that to "to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing."

You can when that is what they are doing.

They are different things because I can pray and not make an entreaty or supplication to God

.Yes and the oposit is true to you can make an entreaty to a person and not to God.

I enter into spiritual communication with Him which is more than just "pray" to a person here

That is for God alone. Not for the saints. Anyway that is what the catholic church says about it.

 

[annsni]

I have no problem with either. I've seen churches dedicated to all sorts of people and causes. To me its an irrelevant issue one way or another and it should be to all Christians to be honest. But dedicated or not its not the person who is being worshiped but God. That person is just being honored or remembered.

And that's why Baptists (and the early church) have statues of those people being honored and remembered and why we name our churches after human beings.

It doesn't say not to venerate people in the bible. Often people are venerated in the bible. Gideon, Joshua, Deborah, Esther, etc... How much is writen about Jair?

Yet where are we told to honor them in the New Testament? One verse that says we're to have feasts for man, statues or churches named after them. One verse please??

I'd like to drop the word obedience in here a rare trait among men.

Obedience to what?

Epistles have a specific perpose to the people whom they are writen no need to write about Mary. usually they are dealing with simple things like "STOP SINNING!" or "DON't FAVOR RICH PEOPLE" or "STOP LISTENING TO THE JUDIAZERS" Etc... Discussion of Mary seems a little beyond that.

But you'd think if Mary were that important ONE word would be said about her, don't you think?? I mean there's quite a bit of talk about Jesus and even the apostles.

The fact that she should be honored as the bible suggest just like the lady with the Jar of Oil should be honored everytime the story is told. The fact she's in there is special attention and the fact that she's Jesus' mother is special unless of course Jesus isn't special. Also what does it say about her? Obedient.

Yet I don't see anyplace where it says that we're to have feasts, pray to, have statues of or ANYTHING else about Mary or any other human.

Southern Baptist church that has a 40 day study on just about everything (thanks rick warren ;-)). I've heard sermons on wonderful missionaries who have passed on but had shared the gospel in the most diverse circumstances. These are given more respect than the lords mom.

Yes, and we've had sermons about the birth of Christ and Mary's role in that. Mary's place is in the story of Christ - not in the place of veneration in the church.

Look at DHK's answer. Any virgin would do. Really? I'd rather doubt that. I suppose any woman would do as his wife. Thats a poor view of women in general. I'd rather doubt God had such a lax attitude about whom he chose. I believe women should be held in hire regard than that and the woman chosen by God should be special not just any mo around. But a faithful, obdient servant, who loved God dearly. Just like I wouldn't have chosen just any woman to have my children. Though unfortunately maybe I'm singular in that. There are many men who feel any woman is good enough. I just have one thing to say about that 51% divorse rate!

So what was special about Mary that no other woman in history could have filled that role? They needed to be of the house of David, that is for sure but what about Mary's cousins? Her nieces? Her aunts?? Her own mother? Do you think none of these other women, as virgins, could have fulfilled the role as well? If they were godly women with a heart towards Him, I think they could have.

Nothing but it shows her heart much like David's who was a man after God's own heart. Both should be honored and imitated.

Yes, and there are many other people who obeyed God and had a heart towards Him. What of them?

Yeah, maybe God should have used a protitute it would go a lot further in inclusion of sinners. ;-)

But that would not fulfill God's prophecy, would it?

What did it cost you? But essentially we all do. Though in my life I tend to be closer to Zachariah than Mary.

But we all accept the call. What did it cost me? Self. Since then, it's cost me a lot more than that as well.

Same thing. Mediate Intersessory prayers fall into this catagory.

No they do not. There is quite a difference between mediate and intercession.

Yes in which you are "acting through an intervening agency". It is only Jesus however that can cancel out our sins. So you have to be specific on what you mean by mediate. I can mediate for you by making request before God.

No you can not. You can pray WITH me but you can not mediate between me and God.

As I've shown. same thing save it is our sins he deals with you are making intersession which is mediation.

You need to understand the differences.

I have you are acting on my behalf thus "acting thorugh an intervening agency" even moses did this before God with the snakes.

I'm not acting on your behalf. I am praying along with you. I can pray for you but I cannot mediate between you and God. I don't understand how Moses figures into this.

Yes they do. Just like the prayers of an effective man avails much. Same consept.

No it's not. Far from it.

I don't see that anywhere taught by the Catholic church. Not in any of their documents.

I don't have time to fully get the information now but here's some info:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm#II

From that site, it says this "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."

It is by Mary's prayers our souls will be delivered from death?

Blasphemy.

Repent and be baptized everyone of you.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Its not in scripture. I've said its speculation but what do you think happens when we go before God? Are we so self centered that we say "Sorry chap. I'm in heaven and your still in your sucky life? I doubt it. Note the parrable of Jesus where the rich man calls up to Lazerus. I don't think Lazerus was doing nothing. The prayers of the saints are lifted up like incense in a discription in Rev. The white clad martyrs are calling out for justice. There seems to be a lot of communal activity in heaven.

Lazarus certainly wasn't watching the earth, was he? Do you think that if you were in the presence of the Almighty God that you would be looking to sinful earth?

The prayers of the saints are lifted up - by the elders. Not by dead believers.

You just said, it's not in Scripture. That's enough for me.

.

So when I'm dead I'm in nihilo? No. I believe in the resurrection and life everlasting. I don't believe I will ever die. My body will but I have everlasting life. When your body dies are you no longer existant?

You will know nothing of earth. That's what the Scripture says. The believers will go into everlasting life in the Kingdom with God and the unbelievers will go to eternal torment in hell. End of story.

I think I will be praying for the deliverance of all those who belong to God because I will take on his likeness and will be more conserned about the entire body of Christ than myself. Though I believe I will also be offering paise and adoration before God. I believe I will be active even as his angels are active making constant request before God on our behalf.

Where are the angels making constant request before God? So we will be unfulfilled - uncompleted in heaven?

I don't think that apparition is canon in the Catholic Church. By the way where does it say mary is god?

The apparition is approved by the church. They don't say that Mary is God but they certainly worship her as if she was.

No one ever said she merited anything. However, I will not diminish her role in the incarnation.

The Catholic church says she merits a lot.

Just like I won't diminish Joshuas role in bringing down the walls of Jericho. Joshua participated in that salvation did he not? But all glory for it goes to God. Thus the incarnation.

So why aren't we having statues to Joshua? Did he get the credit? No. But Mary certainly gets a lot.

That's all? its a rare thing indeed. Something to be called praise worthy don't you think. To obey God like that? I wish I would be more that way.

Do you think she obeyed God in everything? That she was perfect and sinless?

I co mediate too.

Blasphemy

Its my job to pray for others.

No - it is your job to serve God.

I'm going to have to stop. It's time for ballet then church!!

 

[DHK]

Yes in which you are "acting through an intervening agency". It is only Jesus however that can cancel out our sins. So you have to be specific on what you mean by mediate. I can mediate for you by making request before God.


As I've shown. same thing save it is our sins he deals with you are making intersession which is mediation.

Here is what the Bible says:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In the OT the Levitical priests interceded on behalf of or performed a mediatorial service on behalf of the Israelite. When an Israelite sinned, he/she brought their sacrifice to the priest, and he was the one who had to sacrifice it for them. They could not sacrifice if for themselves; a priest had to do it for them.
The RCC has patterned their system after this OT Levitical system, which has been done away with. The author of the Book of Hebrews spends much time in showing how the Levitical priesthood is of no more effect.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

There are no more sacrifices for sins. Christ, in one sacrifice, paid for them all. (Thus OSAS)

He alone is our mediator. He alone is the one that we must go through. He said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
He is the only way!

Even after salvation he remains the only way of approach to God.
He is the only mediator that the believer has. There is none other.

A mediator is like a lawyer, an advocate. He represents you. Christ represents me as I go to the Father in prayer. I cannot stand before a Holy God, a Holy Father. I can only do so because I am covered with the blood of Christ; his righteousness. I cannot stand before God and mediate for your sins. Only Christ can do that, and only if you are saved.

Only Christ can be your mediator.
I can pray for you, for your needs, for the needs of your relatives, etc.
But I cannot mediate for you. There is one mediator and that is Christ. There is only one person that can stand between you and God, and that is not me, and certainly not Mary--it is Christ alone.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Zenas]

Yep - the fact that they are ONLY attributed to God does it for me.

You didn't answer my question. WHO attributed these things only to God? Annsni? The Bible doesn't say they belong exclusively to God. I'm not saying they belong to mortal men but they do belong to us in our glorified state. Can you prove me wrong?

But you were not there, were you? And we're not talking about virtual and we're not talking about technology. We're not even talking about the same plane of existence!

Exactly! If we can be virtually in several places now, just think what miraculous things we can do in that higher "plane of existence."

Well then you want to be God.

No, too much responsibility. I might forget to do something. Seriously though, I think you're going to be surprised at the powers you have in Heaven. One thing is absolutely for sure, either you will be surprised or I will be disappointed.

 

[DHK]

You didn't answer my question. WHO attributed these things only to God? Annsni? The Bible doesn't say they belong exclusively to God. I'm not saying they belong to mortal men but they do belong to us in our glorified state. Can you prove me wrong? Exactly!

Why not?
The Bible states that we will be learning in heaven. We will never stop learning about God and Christ in heaven. Thus we will not be omniscient. We never will be. To say so is blasphemy for this trait belongs only to God.

 

[DHK]

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
--His judgments are unsearchable. That speaks of omniscience. Will yours be unsearchable? No. This is a description of God alone.
--His ways are past finding out. No man can find out his "ways." They are incomprehensible now, and will be the same in heaven.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord?
--Do you know his mind? Will you ever? Even in heaven? Then you will never be omniscient. It is blasphemous to claim to be god, which is what Satan did in Isaiah 14. You are doing the same thing if claiming omniscience.

or who hath been his counsellor?
--Can you ever be in the place of God's counsellor? The answer here is obvious.

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
--Of him are all things. What about you?

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Isaiah 14:13-15 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.