Is this blasphemous enough for you?

[annsni]

Here is another quote from a sermon by Mohler given November 11, 2008 at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

Well, I see that there is something that I disagree with Dr. Mohler on.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yet where are we told to honor them in the New Testament? One verse that says we're to have feasts for man, statues or churches named after them. One verse please??

How about one word. Purim. which was celebrated during Jesus lifetime. It honors Esther does it not?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So what was special about Mary that no other woman in history could have filled that role? They needed to be of the house of David, that is for sure but what about Mary's cousins? Her nieces? Her aunts?? Her own mother? Do you think none of these other women, as virgins, could have fulfilled the role as well? If they were godly women with a heart towards Him, I think they could have.

What's so special? Ok. Whats so special about Abraham? Both believed God and were obedient. Thats pretty special. A whole nation came out Abraham. I would venture in a respect a whole nation came out of Mary too. To include you and I.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm not acting on your behalf. I am praying along with you. I can pray for you but I cannot mediate between you and God. I don't understand how Moses figures into this.

Yes you can act on the behalf of some one else by making intersession for them. Or mediate how does Moses play into this?

Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

He mediated for the people by lifting up his prayer. Same thing. I think you are taking the word and meaning only one specific thing which is mediating for our sins. But mediating can have a larger context lawyers for instance mediate for people. Only Jesus can mediate for our sins and forgive them. But I can mediate for you through intersessory prayers. So, in fact I am co mediator. You must make a statue in rememberance of me and call me your co mediator from now on. ;-)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

From that site, it says this "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."

It is by Mary's prayers our souls will be delivered from death?

where in any of that does it say Mary is God? And how is saying "by your prayers, souls will be delivered from death" and (as I've heard many personal testimonies say) "by my mom's continual prayers, even though I was living a rebellious life, God listened to her and saved me?" Seems to be the same exact thing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You will know nothing of earth. That's what the Scripture says. The believers will go into everlasting life in the Kingdom with God and the unbelievers will go to eternal torment in hell. End of story.

where does it say I will know nothing of earth? Where. BTW here is a point. The bible doesn't discuss everything btw. Have you ever noticed that? Theres a lot of thing to which the bible infers but doesnt specify so there are many area's that are just unknowable.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Where are the angels making constant request before God? So we will be unfulfilled - uncompleted in heaven?

One doesn't mean the other. I never implied the later. You mistakenly infered it but its not necissary that one leads into the other.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No - it is your job to serve God.

Praying for others is not exclusive of serving God. In fact, they go hand in hand. JFYI

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinking Stuff...



That Catholics regularly engage in goddess worship directed towards the sinner saved by grace Mary.

My contention is Catholics that don't know their faith. its like a baptist who doesn't know their faith.

In all of those situations you brought up people are doing those things in spite of the churches admonition that those things are sin.

Yes the Catholic Church says the same thing about making Mary into a god.

The Catholics, on the other hand, are TAUGHT to engage in goddess worship in regards to Mary. (And other people who have died as well)

No they didn't people did that on their own. Catholics only clarified her role in the incarnation.

I'm sorry, but all of that is irrelavent. Whether Catholics understand, or dont understand, what Theotokos means doesnt change the truth that in their "flesh and blood" Catholic experience they ARE engaging...willfully...in goddess worship. And they are doing so because they have been CLEARLY taught to do so by the Hierarchy.

Actually, its very relevant because it is the truth of the term and how it came to be. To accuse otherwize actually is irrelevant. There are Catholics who don't know their faith and engage in rebellion against their faith and aren't really practicing it. Let me give you an example. The speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. She is constantly at odds with her own faith. Or people who go to see an oil slick in the shape of the virgin Mary. All of these people are acting contrarily to their faith.

 

[DHK]

What's so special? Ok. Whats so special about Abraham? Both believed God and were obedient. Thats pretty special. A whole nation came out Abraham. I would venture in a respect a whole nation came out of Mary too. To include you and I.

This is false. There was no nation that came out of Mary--none!
Mary was a sinner. We find her offering a sin offering to the priest when Jesus was circumcised.
We find her admitting that she was a sinner in her exclamation of Christ "my Savior."
We find her praying with the other 120 disciples in Acts 1, with no special privileges. She is not mentioned in the Bible after Acts chapter one. The disciples gave her no special attention. She was a sinner in need of a Savior just like every other sinner, drunkard, prostitute, etc. No one on earth is above having the need of a Savior--no one, and that included Mary.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is false. There was no nation that came out of Mary--none!
Mary was a sinner. We find her offering a sin offering to the priest when Jesus was circumcised.
We find her admitting that she was a sinner in her exclamation of Christ "my Savior."
We find her praying with the other 120 disciples in Acts 1, with no special privileges. She is not mentioned in the Bible after Acts chapter one. The disciples gave her no special attention. She was a sinner in need of a Savior just like every other sinner, drunkard, prostitute, etc. No one on earth is above having the need of a Savior--no one, and that included Mary.

A couple of questions. First, I never said that she was immaculate. However, along the lines of my discussion my questions to thee are thus. 1) Was Abraham not special when he obeyed God and believed God? 2) Did not Mary submit to the will of God and in such a manner participate in the incarnation like Joshua participated in the felling of Jericho? 3) Do you believe Jesus never gave a sin offering and complied with the Laws of the 1st Covenant irrelevant of his status of being sinless? 4) Did she not say all generations shall call her blessed? I know DHK for you any woman would have done. And I think God's redemptive plan would have been made much clearer if the incarnation happened through a prostitute. However, God chose a faithful child of his covenant by which to come into our world. Finally, because of her obedience to the will of God did not Christ become incarnate through her? And as such since he established his kingdom can we not say that she participated in obedience much like Joshua did? Or more specifically Abraham? And if through Abraham's obedience a nation was born why not a nation born of Mary's obedience the nation of Christianity? It seems pretty clear cut. Still its God who does it but just like he used Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and David, did he not use Mary? Can we not honor her for her obedience when it counted?

Now you may not have this problem but do you have masoginistic tendencies? Does it bother you a woman participated in our salvation, like Eshter participated in the salvation of the Jews in Babylon? Like Deborah participated in the deliverance of Israel during the time of the Judges like Jair? Did not certain women play a prominant role in the NT?

 

[matt wade]

Does it bother you a woman participated in our salvation

I've just been a bystander up until this point, but this statement simply makes me cringe. If you believe that any one, other than Jesus Christ, had anything to do with our salvation, you need to take a big giant step back and consider your spiritual life.

 

[DHK]

A couple of questions. First, I never said that she was immaculate. However, along the lines of my discussion my questions to thee are thus. 1) Was Abraham not special when he obeyed God and believed God?

The Bible indicates that God called Abraham out of an idolatrous land. Abraham believed God and thus it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. The records are few of other believers at that time. The land was wholly idolatrous. Your comparison is apples and oranges. He chose Abraham because Abraham believed on God.

2) Did not Mary submit to the will of God and in such a manner participate in the incarnation like Joshua participated in the felling of Jericho?

No. Joshua was trained under Moses command to take over the leadership of Israel when Moses died. He was always with Moses. He was his second in command. He was even with Moses when he went up in the Mount. When the golden calf was destroyed Joshua asked: "Who is on the Lord's side?"
All the Levites stepped forward. They all obeyed God, not just Joshua.
The entire nation marched around the city of Jericho, not just Joshua.

Were there others that would have obedient to God, other than Mary if put in the same situation? We have no reason to believe otherwise. To believe that Mary was the only obedient believer on the planet is ludicrous. 30 years later Jesus started his ministry. Many left all and followed him. Many were obedient. Why do you think Mary was the only obedient virgin? That position is ludicrous.

3) Do you believe Jesus never gave a sin offering and complied with the Laws of the 1st Covenant irrelevant of his status of being sinless?

This question hardly warrants an answer does it? A sinless person needs no sacrifice for sin. Mary offered a sin offering on her behalf not on Jesus behalf. Jesus never offered any sin offerings. Where do you come up with such ridiculous questions?

4) Did she not say all generations shall call her blessed?

It says the same about Deborah, the judge in the OT--that all generations would call her blessed. So what!

I know DHK for you any woman would have done. And I think God's redemptive plan would have been made much clearer if the incarnation happened through a prostitute.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said any virgin would have done. I said any obedient virgin that fit God's qualifications would have done. There were many in that time in Israel. Mary was not the only virgin living for the Lord was she? To assume that she was is being naive.

However, God chose a faithful child of his covenant by which to come into our world.

There were many faithful children of his covenant that God could of chose to bring His Son into the world. To say otherwise would be naive.

Finally, because of her obedience to the will of God did not Christ become incarnate through her?

NO! Because of the sovereign choice of God did He choose Mary, not because of her virtue, but in spite of it. Not because of her obedience, but in spite of it. There were others that fit that bill as well.

And as such since he established his kingdom can we not say that she participated in obedience much like Joshua did?

1. His kingdom is not yet established.
2. Many have been obedient to Him. Why the obsession with Joshua?

Or more specifically Abraham? And if through Abraham's obedience a nation was born why not a nation born of Mary's obedience the nation of Christianity?

This is erroneous teaching and the beginnings of a cult. No nation came from Mary--none, nada, zero, nilch. Mary had nothing to do with the beginning of any nation.

It seems pretty clear cut. Still its God who does it but just like he used Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and David, did he not use Mary?

Mary was a vessel that God used in a time in history for his glory.
He also used William Carey, Adoniram Judson, and others.

Can we not honor her for her obedience when it counted?

There are many that we can honor; there is only ONE that we can worship (venerate), and that is God.

Now you may not have this problem but do you have masoginistic tendencies?

Don't lie and give false allegations. Breaking the rules and being unethical like this goes overboard. You should be ashamed.

Does it bother you a woman participated in our salvation, like Eshter participated in the salvation of the Jews in Babylon?

If salvation is not all of God then there is no salvation at all. Salvation is all of God.

Like Deborah participated in the deliverance of Israel during the time of the Judges like Jair? Did not certain women play a prominant role in the NT?

Salvation was not through Deborah. It was through Jehovah, and Him alone. Ask Deborah!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I've just been a bystander up until this point, but this statement simply makes me cringe. If you believe that any one, other than Jesus Christ, had anything to do with our salvation, you need to take a big giant step back and consider your spiritual life.

I'm sorry you cringed. There is in my mind a difference between provision and participating. A person can make provision for something for someone else and they can participate but the provision isn't any less than a provision. Let me explain it this way God alone delivered Jericho into the Hands of the Israelites. Amen? Ok. However, Joshua and the Israelites participated by walking around the city 7 times and then by blowing tumpets and making a loud praise to the Lord. Did Joshua deliver the city? No. God did but God designed the conquest in such a way as to have the Israelites participate. It is in this manner Mary participates. It is in this manner that the evangelist who first spoke to me about salvation that made him a participant in my salvation. It is in this manner that my discussions with certain people over the years that I've participated in their salvation. This is how I view it and honestly don't see a reason to cringe because in none of these senarios is the participant the provider of salvation but God alone.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Bible indicates that God called Abraham out of an idolatrous land. Abraham believed God and thus it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. The records are few of other believers at that time. The land was wholly idolatrous. Your comparison is apples and oranges. He chose Abraham because Abraham believed on God.

Sorry DHK the comparision is both of faith and obedience. Apples to Apples.

No. Joshua was trained under Moses command to take over the leadership of Israel when Moses died. He was always with Moses. He was his second in command. He was even with Moses when he went up in the Mount. When the golden calf was destroyed Joshua asked: "Who is on the Lord's side?"
All the Levites stepped forward. They all obeyed God, not just Joshua.
The entire nation marched around the city of Jericho, not just Joshua.

You've shown that Joshua was participant as was the nation walking around the city.

Were there others that would have obedient to God, other than Mary if put in the same situation? We have no reason to believe otherwise.

Actually, you have no idea. And neither do I. All else is speculation

To believe that Mary was the only obedient believer on the planet is ludicrous

NO one suggested that she was. However, she was chosen.

30 years later Jesus started his ministry. Many left all and followed him. Many were obedient. Why do you think Mary was the only obedient virgin?

She did the will of God. What makes you think she wasn't obedient?

That position is ludicrous.

In fact to suggest that Mary wasn't obedient for the incarnation is ludicrous.

This question hardly warrants an answer does it?

You are only saying that because you don't know. In fact Jesus had no sin therefore didn't need to even give a symbol of his own salvation by baptism but he does it out of obedience anyway. It suggest that he probably offered a sin sacrifice though it was not needed. In order to fulfill the law on our behalf.

A sinless person needs no sacrifice for sin. Mary offered a sin offering on her behalf not on Jesus behalf. Jesus never offered any sin offerings. Where do you come up with such ridiculous questions?

Its a reasonable question since it was a community activity as well as a personal activity. It seems you aren't educated in the culture and religion of Jesus day.

It says the same about Deborah, the judge in the OT--that all generations would call her blessed. So what!

Well, you need to start calling her blessed our you make God into a liar. Do you want to do that?

Don't put words in my mouth. I said any virgin would have done

I doubt it. God chose her not any virgin. God has a higher view of women I think then you indicate here. She was special just like Joseph was special.

There were many in that time in Israel. Mary was not the only virgin living for the Lord was she? To assume that she was is being naive.

Yet just like my wife she was chosen specifically. Not any woman can be my wife. Not any woman could be Jesus mother but the right one. If you are a calvinist and hold to Tulip you must agree because any virgin would limit God's supremacy. You have to believe then as a calvinist that God specifically created mary to be the vessel of the incarnation. Otherwise its a matter of the draw. Which according to RC Sproul, luck does not exist.

NO! Because of the sovereign choice of God did He choose Mary, not because of her virtue, but in spite of it. Not because of her obedience, but in spite of it. There were others that fit that bill as well.

So in spite of her obedience God chose her? Thats funny. Its not like Mary said no way God! You ain't touching this figure. However, I propose He did choose Mary and set her apart for this very purpose which suggest that not any virgin could do it.

1. His kingdom is not yet established.
2. Many have been obedient to Him. Why the obsession with Joshua?

No obsession. Its an easy comparison and it comes to mind

This is erroneous teaching and the beginnings of a cult. No nation came from Mary--none, nada, zero, nilch. Mary had nothing to do with the beginning of any nation.

you really need to read Martin to get an idea of a cult. I think you think anyone who has a differing opinion is a cult.

Mary was a vessel that God used in a time in history for his glory.
He also used William Carey, Adoniram Judson, and others.

Yes exactly what I'm saying. They are are for specific purpose.

There are many that we can honor; there is only ONE that we can worship (venerate), and that is God.

Yes and I've said so. It just so happens when someone uses the work Mary People make all sorts of assumptions. Mary, Mary, Mary. She should be honored as should all the other saints obedient to God. The problem often is she's not just because we're trying to avoid looking roman.

Don't lie and give false allegations. Breaking the rules and being unethical like this goes overboard. You should be ashamed.

How did I lie? In fact. Read it again. I'm just asking a question. What did I say?

Now you may not have this problem

Didn't I say that? I'm not putting that on you Just asking if its a problem or not. Many IFB that I've met give that impression with sentiment that women are somehow second class citizens because of being the first tempted. So, I didn't lie now did I? I didn't break any forum rules have I? You've just jumped to a conclusion.

If salvation is not all of God then there is no salvation at all. Salvation is all of God

I've never indicated that salvation wasn't all of God.

Salvation was not through Deborah. It was through Jehovah, and Him alone. Ask Deborah!

Yes it was, but she participated.

 

[matt wade]

I'm sorry you cringed. There is in my mind a difference between provision and participating. A person can make provision for something for someone else and they can participate but the provision isn't any less than a provision. Let me explain it this way God alone delivered Jericho into the Hands of the Israelites. Amen? Ok. However, Joshua and the Israelites participated by walking around the city 7 times and then by blowing tumpets and making a loud praise to the Lord. Did Joshua deliver the city? No. God did but God designed the conquest in such a way as to have the Israelites participate. It is in this manner Mary participates. It is in this manner that the evangelist who first spoke to me about salvation that made him a participant in my salvation. It is in this manner that my discussions with certain people over the years that I've participated in their salvation. This is how I view it and honestly don't see a reason to cringe because in none of these senarios is the participant the provider of salvation but God alone.

The problem is with the way you present it. You present it as if without Mary we would have no salvation. You act as if she played an irreplaceable role in our salvation. You elevate her to place above others because of this role you believe she played.

Since we are playing the "they all had a role" game, what about those that crucified Jesus? Surely they participated in your salvation, right? Why don't you also elevate them?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The problem is with the way you present it. You present it as if without Mary we would have no salvation. You act as if she played an irreplaceable role in our salvation. You elevate her to place above others because of this role you believe she played.

Since we are playing the "they all had a role" game, what about those that crucified Jesus? Surely they participated in your salvation, right? Why don't you also elevate them?

I'm not the liguist I would like to be. I wish I could command words like the Bard himself. However, I am but a nave when it comes to English.

A couple of points. I do elevate Mary, even as I elevate Moses, Abraham, Joshua and others. I honor them and venerate them for their obedience and faithfulness to God. In one sense their participation is Key but in another sense like Esther's uncle told her. If she didn't save her people God would save them anyway. Yet God honors her by allowing her to be the instrument and thus Esther plays a key role in the salvation of the people. It is in this sense I look at Mary. She too plays a key role. Yet salvation totally belongs to God. Thus I believe Mary is honored and should be honored. God Chose her from the foundation of the world to give birth to his beloved son did he not?

 

[matt wade]

I'm not the liguist I would like to be. I wish I could command words like the Bard himself. However, I am but a nave when it comes to English.

A couple of points. I do elevate Mary, even as I elevate Moses, Abraham, Joshua and others. I honor them and venerate them for their obedience and faithfulness to God. In one sense their participation is Key but in another sense like Esther's uncle told her. If she didn't save her people God would save them anyway. Yet God honors her by allowing her to be the instrument and thus Esther plays a key role in the salvation of the people. It is in this sense I look at Mary. She too plays a key role. Yet salvation totally belongs to God. Thus I believe Mary is honored and should be honored. God Chose her from the foundation of the world to give birth to his beloved son did he not?

Do you also honor and elevate Joseph? Was he not Jesus' earthly father? Did he not raise Jesus and provide for him as a good father should? Was Joseph not chosen from the foundation of the world? Was not Joseph obedient and faithful to God?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Do you also honor and elevate Joseph? Was he not Jesus' earthly father? Did he not raise Jesus and provide for him as a good father should? Was Joseph not chosen from the foundation of the world? Was not Joseph obedient and faithful to God?

Joseph was Jesus step father only.

 

[matt wade]

Joseph was Jesus step father only.

It doesn't matter whether he was a step father or not...it only matters if he "participated" and was obedient and faithful to God. Joseph did those things, so why not elevate him?