Is this blasphemous enough for you?

[annsni]

But DHK - We will be like God when we get to heaven!!

 

[Zenas]

Why not?
The Bible states that we will be learning in heaven. We will never stop learning about God and Christ in heaven. Thus we will not be omniscient. We never will be. To say so is blasphemy for this trait belongs only to God.

If you will read Post #133, you will see that I definitely conceded omnipotence to God and agreed that it could be said that only God is omniscient. However, I won't concede that we could be omnipresent. Frankly, if we don't have supernatural powers, Heaven doesn't seem all that attractive. A lot better than Hell but really not much better than we have it here on earth. I will choose to believe that we will have supernatural powers in Heaven because it makes ultimate good sense and the Bible doesn't say we won't. In fact it gives strong hints that we will.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12.

So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 1 Corinthians 15:42-43.

And I know how such a man . . . was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 2 Corinthians 12:3-4.

 

[DHK]

If you will read Post #133, you will see that I definitely conceded omnipotence to God and agreed that it could be said that only God is omniscient. However, I won't concede that we could be omnipresent. Frankly, if we don't have supernatural powers, Heaven doesn't seem all that attractive. A lot better than Hell but really not much better than we have it here on earth. I will choose to believe that we will have supernatural powers in Heaven because it makes ultimate good sense and the Bible doesn't say we won't. In fact it gives strong hints that we will.

When Stephen looked up he saw Jesus "standing" on the right hand of the Father. Otherwise, Jesus sits on the right hand of God. By virtue of Jesus being part of the triune Godhead he is omnipresent. Otherwise he is limited by his body.
We will have a glorified body, in many respects like Jesus's body. But we will be limited. We, unlike Jesus, cannot be everywhere. We can only be one place at one time. Even the angels--ministering spirits without bodies--had to be sent by God to do his bidding. They could not be everywhere. Satan himself is ubiquitous, but not omnipresent. He is a personage, but cannot be omnipresent. That quality belongs only to God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Zenas]

When Stephen looked up he saw Jesus "standing" on the right hand of the Father. Otherwise, Jesus sits on the right hand of God. By virtue of Jesus being part of the triune Godhead he is omnipresent. Otherwise he is limited by his body.
We will have a glorified body, in many respects like Jesus's body. But we will be limited. We, unlike Jesus, cannot be everywhere. We can only be one place at one time. Even the angels--ministering spirits without bodies--had to be sent by God to do his bidding. They could not be everywhere. Satan himself is ubiquitous, but not omnipresent. He is a personage, but cannot be omnipresent. That quality belongs only to God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 supports my point. You're entitled to believe what you want about this because there is no direct scriptural support for or against it. However, as I said, there is a lot of scriptural inference to support the proposition that we will have supernatural powers--such as omnipresence.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I don't know about omniscience and omnipresence of the dead and would lean to them not having those qualities. But this verse in hebrews strongly suggests that we are seen by those who are dead.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ... Heb 12:1a

It is not a stretch to suggest that they can also hear us. I don't claim to know how this is possible.

 

[annsni]

1 John 3:2 supports my point. You're entitled to believe what you want about this because there is no direct scriptural support for or against it. However, as I said, there is a lot of scriptural inference to support the proposition that we will have supernatural powers--such as omnipresence.

What scriptural inference would that be?

To say "Frankly, if we don't have supernatural powers, Heaven doesn't seem all that attractive. A lot better than Hell but really not much better than we have it here on earth." shows a complete lack of understanding of God. I personally don't care if all we will do for all eternity is to stand and sing and worship before God and I have no other ability to anything but that. "Not much better than we have it here on earth?" Are you kidding me? Standing in front of the Almighty God, the Creator of the universe, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords at which every knee shall bow is "not much better"??? Unbelievable. So you're in it for what you can get and if you can't get "supernatural powers" like what - flying around and walking through walls - then you don't really want to go there because it's not "attractive"??

 

[annsni]

I don't know about omniscience and omnipresence of the dead and would lean to them not having those qualities. But this verse in hebrews strongly suggests that we are seen by those who are dead.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ... Heb 12:1a

It is not a stretch to suggest that they can also hear us.

That doesn't mean that they are standing around watching us. It speaks of the faith of so many and by that witness we are surrounded. I don't see Scripture telling us that they are standing around cheering us on or anything.

 

[Gold Dragon]

That doesn't mean that they are standing around watching us. It speaks of the faith of so many and by that witness we are surrounded. I don't see Scripture telling us that they are standing around cheering us on or anything.

As I said, it strongly suggests they can see us. Maybe it doesn't mean they can. Maybe it does.

 

[annsni]

As I said, it strongly suggests they can see us. Maybe it doesn't mean they can. Maybe it does.

I don't think it strongly suggests they can see us. I see the "witness" is each of the person's faith. Not that they are sitting in the bleachers like at a contest or something.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I don't think it strongly suggests they can see us. I see the "witness" is each of the person's faith. Not that they are sitting in the bleachers like at a contest or something.

Those are two differing but possible interpretations of that verse.

Here is the rest of the verse

"let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."

The race analogy suggests to me that witness here is like an audience sitting in the bleachers in a contest.

 

[annsni]

Those are two differing but possible interpretations of that verse.

Here is the rest of the verse

"let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."

The race analogy suggests to me that witness here is like an audience sitting in the bleachers in a contest.

Or maybe because of the witness of their faith, we can press on, not giving up? By the witness of their faith and perseverance, we can know that we have a God who gives us the ability to overcome and so we can win that prize. That's just how I read the passage.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Or maybe because of the witness of their faith, we can press on, not giving up? By the witness of their faith and perseverance, we can know that we have a God who gives us the ability to overcome and so we can win that prize. That's just how I read the passage.

Yes, that is another possible interpretation.

 

[Zenas]

What scriptural inference would that be?

See Post #142.

To say "Frankly, if we don't have supernatural powers, Heaven doesn't seem all that attractive. A lot better than Hell but really not much better than we have it here on earth." shows a complete lack of understanding of God. I personally don't care if all we will do for all eternity is to stand and sing and worship before God and I have no other ability to anything but that. "Not much better than we have it here on earth?" Are you kidding me? Standing in front of the Almighty God, the Creator of the universe, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords at which every knee shall bow is "not much better"??? Unbelievable. So you're in it for what you can get and if you can't get "supernatural powers" like what - flying around and walking through walls - then you don't really want to go there because it's not "attractive"?

I think you're ever so slightly twisting what I said, although I will forgive you because I have on occasion done that. You're right, being in the presence of God would be pretty cool but I guarantee it will be a lot more than that. Yes, we will fly around and walk through walls, and do a lot of other cool stuff as well.

 

[Zenas]

I don't think it strongly suggests they can see us. I see the "witness" is each of the person's faith. Not that they are sitting in the bleachers like at a contest or something.

I know of two prominent Baptists--Albert Mohler and Billy Graham--who believe the saints of Hebrews 12:1 can see us. In fact I believe both of them have used the bleachers analogy, "cheering us on to victory."

 

[Gold Dragon]

I think that annsni's interpretation of Heb 12:1 is a valid one but here is what Albert Mohler had to say about the verse at one SBC convention sermon he delivered.

The Baptist Banner Archives: WHAT MEAN THESE STONES?
...

On this sesquicentennial convention, aware of the significance of such a commemoration, I am drawn to the words of Hebrews 12:1-2:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Can you see that great cloud of witnesses with me? Among them are saints once among us. In our imagination I believe we should hear them asking us what is most on their hearts, even as they encourage us in the race. Can you hear the voices?

* William B, Johnson asking, "Are you keeping the Convention true?"
* Basil Manly Sr. asking, "Are you trusting in the providence of God?"
* James P, Boyce asking, "Are you holding fast to the doctrine?"
*James Frost asking, "Are you maintaining the authority and inerrancy of Holy Scripture?"
* J.B. Gambrell asking, "Are you still reaching the common people?
* Lottie Moon asking, "Are you ready to sacrifice?"
* Annie Armstrong asking, "Are you ready to serve?"
* B, H, Carroll asking, "Have you defended the faith?"
* L, R, Scarborough asking, "Are you with Christ, after the lost?"
* E, Y, Mullins asking, "Did you stand on Baptist principles?"
* Bill Wallace asking, "Are you willing to die?"
* Baker James Cauthen asking, "Are you willing to go?"
* R G, Lee asking, "Are you preaching the Word?'

I can hear questions from the Apostles and the Prophets. And I know that we will one day see our Lord, when we meet Him face to face, and we will answer to the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father,
...

Of course, Albert Mohler could be wrong about his interpretation of this verse but I think it is a valid and common evangelical baptist interpretation.

 

[Zenas]

Here is another quote from a sermon by Mohler given November 11, 2008 at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

We are part of a communion we cannot see. We are a part of a body that is made up of all the redeemed throughout all the ages and we are even now at this moment in communion with all of them. Turn with me please to Hebrews Chapter 12. In Hebrews Chapter 12, we begin with verse 1:

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

This great cloud of witnesses is not made up of persons we can see, but it is made up of a cloud of witnesses of persons who can see us, who know us. They, though dead, yet live. Hebrews 12 follows Hebrews 11—the recitation of this great pantheon of faith. But it doesn’t end merely with the recitation that we are to run a race with the communion of saints as the host of witnesses observing, surrounding us. But rather we go to verse 18:

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Your heart should be stirred. The blood should be coursing just a little faster. We haven’t come like the people of the old covenant to a mountain that is shaking with fire and trembling. That is a part of our story but instead we have come to Mount Zion. By God’s grace we have come to the city of the living God. We have come to a heavenly Jerusalem. We are already there. Our citizenship is already there. We are already there by God’s grace. We are already there by faith. We have come to myriads of angels. We have come to the general assembly.

 

[DHK]

I think that annsni's interpretation of Heb 12:1 is a valid one but here is what Albert Mohler had to say about the verse at one SBC convention sermon he delivered.



Of course, Albert Mohler could be wrong about his interpretation of this verse but I think it is a valid and common evangelical baptist interpretation.

He is not giving a theological interpretation. He is preaching, painting a picture--giving an illustration while expounding on Scripture. Do you know the difference?

 

[Gold Dragon]

He is not giving a theological interpretation. He is preaching, painting a picture--giving an illustration while expounding on Scripture. Do you know the difference?

If ones exposition of a passage does not convey their interpretation of it, then they have done a poor job of exposition.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinking Stuff...

What kind of accusations are these?

That Catholics regularly engage in goddess worship directed towards the sinner saved by grace Mary.

There are baptist who go to church that are drunk. There are baptist who worship money, food, their things. There are baptist who sleep around frequently. And I would also like to mention there are Church of Christ members in the same boat. Just because there are people who do these things; it does not seem reasonable to accuse the institution of causing it or teaching it. If the institution teaches against it then grant them that. Unless we look at everyone with the same measuring stick.

In all of those situations you brought up people are doing those things in spite of the churches admonition that those things are sin.

The Catholics, on the other hand, are TAUGHT to engage in goddess worship in regards to Mary. (And other people who have died as well)

Mother of God accusations kills me because the people who mention it are ignorant of the history of the term Theotokos. Theotokos does not mean Mary is divine. Thats just stupid. Theotokos does not mean Mary was before God. That is also stupid. Catholics use the term first Mover for God from Thomas Aquinas. It means for you philosophy students that there is nothing before God and he is the original cause of all things. It also means God is immutable. So the term Theotokos (mother of God) is a statement about the deity of Christ. See for you people unkowledgable about history there was a large movement saying that Jesus was a created being. By such people as Arius. There was also a believe that Jesus was a man who became possessed by God. There was also a believe that Jesus just seemed to be a person. Etc.... The term Theotokos was developed to combat these ridiculous ideas. Mary gave birth to the fulness of Christ in his humanity and his deity. Mary in this instance is a vessel for the incarnation. The reason I am harsh with people who make this accusation is because to make it 1) you have shown an ignorance of the history of Christianity which can be found in any Christian book store. And these terms are clearly spelled out. Even Zondervan has a summary of Christian history explaining this consept. 2) You're not being intellectually honest.

I'm sorry, but all of that is irrelavent. Whether Catholics understand, or dont understand, what Theotokos means doesnt change the truth that in their "flesh and blood" Catholic experience they ARE engaging...willfully...in goddess worship. And they are doing so because they have been CLEARLY taught to do so by the Hierarchy.

 

[annsni]

I think that annsni's interpretation of Heb 12:1 is a valid one but here is what Albert Mohler had to say about the verse at one SBC convention sermon he delivered.



Of course, Albert Mohler could be wrong about his interpretation of this verse but I think it is a valid and common evangelical baptist interpretation.

I don't see that as saying that they are presently actively watching us.