Is This really Lordship Salvation view then?

[37818]

You are completely wrong about this passage. It confirms “lordship salvation” with the phrase “those that do the will of My Father…”

What do you think the will the Father not done in Matthew 7:22 to be? Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[canadyjd]

What do you think the will the Father not done in Matthew 7:22 to be? Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The will of the Father is to be in a relationship with Him, through Jesus Christ. When that happens, you are expected to walk in the works He prepared beforehand for you to do (Ephesians). That is why Jesus told them “depart from Me, I never knew you”. Whatever they did, didn’t matter because the relationship wasn’t there.

The “works” will vary with each person, but proclaiming Christ, giving a testimony of His grace toward you and how it changed your life would be the foundation, imo. As Peter stated, be prepared to give an answer for the hope you have. That is a testimony. Very few, imo, actually have ever thought of what their testimony is, how God has changed their lives.

All works outside of the will of God, according to Paul, no matter how “good” they seem from a secular point of view, are “filthy rags” in God’s sight.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

@canadyjd ,
The will of the Father, salvation must be received solely as a gift. Cannot be merited, Matthew 7:22-23.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd ,
The will of the Father, salvation must be received solely as a gift. Cannot be merited, Matthew 7:22-23.

Ok we agree

Peace to you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think your definition of the gospel is out of focus.

Paul gave what was of “first importance” concerning the gospel in 1 Corinthians. That is…

Jesus died for our sins according to the scripture

Jesus was buried, according to the scripture

Jesus rose from the dead, according to the scriptures

Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people that knew He died.

The focus of the Gospel is always upon the person and work of Jesus. Your definition is more focused on the person and what they do.

Peace to you

please reread.

You just posted what I believe the gospel is.

Jesus himself said the same thing. when he said the gospel of repentance and remission of sin will be preached throughout the world..

Based on those facts

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are completely wrong about this passage. It confirms “lordship salvation” with the phrase “those that do the will of My Father…”

This passage illustrates “salvation” is about being in a right relationship with God (as evidenced by Jesus saying “depart from Me, I never KNEW you”)

Lordship salvation says nothing more than the biblical truth that there is an expectation of a transformed life for those who are in a right relationship with God.

I don’t declare anyone saved or unsaved. I put no conditions of “you must do…. something” to prove your salvation. I would only caution that those with no evidence of a transformed life shouldn’t have assurance of salvation. That is biblical, as Paul gave similar warnings.

Peace to you

Those who do are descriptive not prescriptive.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Or as Peter stated to us, make your election and calling sure

why did Peter say this?

Was he questioning peoples faith?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, I do believe the “free grace” gospel, as I understand it, is focused on the person “making a decision” for Jesus.

It is focused more on the person and what they do. Jesus is usually presented as waiting diligently for any who will respond, so He has an opportunity to intervene at their request.

Very little, or no attention, is made of God Holy Spirit’s role in drawing, convicting of sin and truth, of regenerating which allows the person to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ.

Peace to you

Um no

It is focused on God and what he promised and what he did on the cross.

again, "free grace" is a bad term, grace, by definition, is free to the receiver.

it was paid in full by the receiver.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Seems that most who advocate "free grace" theology are non Cals, while Cals affirm Lordship theology

do they?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, not sure if I’d ever say “all” of one group believes a specific way. Many hold to less than the 5 points, sometimes only one.

And I have seen more than one “Calvinist” deny Lordship based on the same arguments against legalism.

I had a professor say the following, as a good guideline to assess a person’s beliefs.

Concerning Salvation….

If God is responding to to what the person does in granting salvation… that is a works based salvation.

If the person is responding to what God has done in their lives with faith in Jesus, that is grace based salvation.

That seems to be very concise.

This is a good thread. Thanks for sharing.

Peace to you

like this post. and agree with those two points.

do we receive him because of what he has done

or does he receive us based on what we have done.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The will of the Father is to be in a relationship with Him, through Jesus Christ. When that happens, you are expected to walk in the works He prepared beforehand for you to do (Ephesians). That is why Jesus told them “depart from Me, I never knew you”. Whatever they did, didn’t matter because the relationship wasn’t there.

when you add the word expected. You add legalism to the equation.

God did not give us a spirit of fear. but of a sound mind. If I HAVE to do something. then I do it our of fear. or out of self preservation. Not out of love.

that in my view is where lordship salvation fails..

The “works” will vary with each person, but proclaiming Christ, giving a testimony of His grace toward you and how it changed your life would be the foundation, imo. As Peter stated, be prepared to give an answer for the hope you have. That is a testimony. Very few, imo, actually have ever thought of what their testimony is, how God has changed their lives.

agree

All works outside of the will of God, according to Paul, no matter how “good” they seem from a secular point of view, are “filthy rags” in God’s sight.

Peace to you

They did works in order to save themselves. they rejected his grace.

So in unbelief. they remained condemned.

 

[canadyjd]

We respond to what God has done with faith in Jesus

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

when you add the word expected. You add legalism to the equation…

No it does not.

Paul tells us we are saved by grace, not works, but to walk in the works God has prepared beforehand for us.

James tells us faith not resulting in works is a dead faith

Paul and James expected professing Christians to evidence a transformed life. He would deny it resulted in legalism, far from it.

Again, I don’t declare people saved or unsaved. The testimony of scripture is that salvation produces a transformed life. The old man has died. The new man lives.

If faith doesn’t produce a transformed life, it could be the new Christian is struggling to mature. It could also mean they are among those that have deceived themselves and will hear Jesus say “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

Peace to you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No it does not.

yes it does.

You say things are expected. You are in essence saying if you do not do those things. You will not continue..

Paul tells us we are saved by grace, not works, but to walk in the works God has prepared beforehand for us.

Amen.

but he also said we were created in Christ for those works. it is our new nature..

James tells us faith not resulting in works is a dead faith

Because it is not faith.

You do not claim you trust someone. and never do anything they say. They are not hears and not doers.

Paul and James expected professing Christians to evidence a transformed life. He would deny it resulted in legalism, far from it.

They both knew a person who had true faith would because of their new foundation and creation work.

They did not expect it..

Again, I don’t declare people saved or unsaved. The testimony of scripture is that salvation produces a transformed life. The old man has died. The new man lives.

Do you believe if a person does falls from doing works they fall from salvation?

If faith doesn’t produce a transformed life, it could be the new Christian is struggling to mature. It could also mean they are among those that have deceived themselves and will hear Jesus say “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

Yes.

But we are not called to be fruit inspectors.. We are called to give the gospel.. then let those in that persons life help him to grow in christ.

Peace to you

you also brother

 

[canadyjd]

yes it does.

You say things are expected. You are in essence saying if you do not do those things. You will not continue..

No, it does not and no I do not.

but he also said we were created in Christ for those works. it is our new nature..

We agree

Because it is not faith.

We agree

You do not claim you trust someone. and never do anything they say. They are not hears and not doers.

We agree

They both knew a person who had true faith would because of their new foundation and creation work.

We agree

They did not expect it..

That’s simply making a distinction without a difference. If they “knew” they would work because of the new life… they noticed if they didn’t.

Do you believe if a person does falls from doing works they fall from salvation?

No, I do not believe a person can lose salvation.

…
But we are not called to be fruit inspectors.. We are called to give the gospel.. then let those in that persons life help him to grow in christ.

We agree. We are also not called to give a false assurance to those that are not walking in a manner worthy of our Lord.

Peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

like this post. and agree with those two points.

do we receive him because of what he has done

or does he receive us based on what we have done.

We come to Him to save us based upon the Trinity, and their co work in our salvation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, it does not and no I do not.

to me it does. and I am sure to anyone who did not know better. they would think the same also.

Again, This is w-one of the things that stopped me going on visitation with my Dad.

We agree

We agree

We agree

We agree

That’s simply making a distinction without a difference. If they “knew” they would work because of the new life… they noticed if they didn’t.

But thats the point

it happens.. Not all will become super human christians doing alot of works. but people will notice a difference.

thats why James had people to test their faith, If you CLAIM you have faith. but your not doing works. can that faith save you?

No, I do not believe a person can lose salvation.

Good!

We agree. We are also not called to give a false assurance to those that are not walking in a manner worthy of our Lord.

Peace to you

See this is where I cringe

No one is worthy.. so to say anyone is not walking in a matter worthy. that would be all of us.

I point people to God and to serving and loving others.. Not in how they are behaving..

Unless they are resistant to serving and walking after the spirit. then that's where discipline may come in..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We come to Him to save us based upon the Trinity, and their co work in our salvation

hmm.. now this I will have to think on..

 

[MrW]

Everyone has a Lord. If it's not the Lord Jesus, then it is the Lord's enemy, the god of this age.

Salvation is by grace, not works. If you are convicted and converted, born again, regenerated--then your life will show it.

And the Lord Jesus is your Lord.

If you REJECT the Lord Jesus as your Lord, then how can you be saved? You have rejected Him.

NOW--what other people call "Lordship salvation", I don't know. I'm telling you if you're saved, He's your Lord.

 

[canadyjd]

to me it does. and I am sure to anyone who did not know better. they would think the same also.

I’m sorry you misunderstand my position. I have been as candid as I know how.

….
it happens.. Not all will become super human christians doing alot of works. but people will notice a difference.

You continue to confuse me. We appear to be saying the same thing, but then you make the accusation of legalism against me. What if no one “noticed a difference”? Do you give that person assurance of salvation?

Again, I don’t declare anyone saved or unsaved. But we must discern if our brethren are struggling to walk after Christ.

thats why James had people to test their faith, If you CLAIM you have faith. but your not doing works. can that faith save you?

Again, are you certain you are opposed to Lordship Salvation? We agree, again.

See this is where I cringe

No one is worthy.. so to say anyone is not walking in a matter worthy. that would be all of us.

The Apostle Paul commanded us to walk in a manner worthy of our calling. It is biblical to use that language.

It is a worth while effort, to be sure. If, however, someone professes Christ and then makes no attempt to follow His commands, to walk in a manner worthy… would you tell them not to worry, their salvation is certain?

I point people to God and to serving and loving others.. Not in how they are behaving..

Well, I don’t understand the difference between pointing people to serving and loving others…. But not in how they are behaving. Isn’t that the same thing?

Unless they are resistant to serving and walking after the spirit. then that's where discipline may come in..

Ok, we agree…. Again.

I think we agree far more than disagree. In fact, I don’t really see any doctrinal differences between us… just an objection to using certain words to describe those beliefs.

Peace to you