Is Unbelief a sin ?

[Dave G]

So if the "elect" were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world then you must believe that what the bible tells us is all just for show.

No Silverhair.
I'm telling you exactly what the Scriptures say...

That there is a group of people who will never understand and believe every word of God, and there is a groups of people who will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ( Luke 13:24 ).

Since all those that would be saved were already saved then why all the drama we see in scripture.

Why all the drama that you see in the Scriptures?
I don't see any "drama".

What I see sobers me greatly, and cause me to praise Him for His unspeakable gifts.

His death and resurrection would make no difference as to who would be saved and who would be damned.

It doesn't.
Where you apparently see "chance" in God's salvation of people, I see a specific set of deeds for a specific set of purposes and for a specific group of people.

For example, I see that He came to suffer and die for His people ( Isaiah 53:8 ).
He made all the difference for them.

 

[Dave G]

According to your view it was all decided in eternity past.

According to God's word, it was.

That is what makes it truly all of grace, and in no way allows man's works, of any kind, to enter in...
Influencing Him to save one and not another.
He saves, and He condemns...with no influence from men or their desires.

If He did, He would be guilty of lying when He told us that He is no respecter of persons.

That's not a biblical view but it is the one that you are putting forward.

I'm taking it straight off the pages, Silverhair.
Every. single. word, ignoring none of them.

I hope someday that you will also see it...
That is why I encourage all those who profess Christ to bury themselves in His word, and not to take their cues from men or institutions of men.

I wish you well, sir.

 

[Silverhair]

It's there in the details, Silverhair.
I'm carrying over into Ephesians 1 what I've been told already in other places by the Lord.

Exactly.

Those that heard and fell away are those He never knew, and will tell them so at the Judgement.
Those that heard and persevered in their faith, are those that He has chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world...they grow and bear fruit, because they have the Spirit of God in them, comforting them and keeping them in their faith by His power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not our power.

You are reading into the text what is not found in the text. What you are doing leads to many errors.

 

[Silverhair]

That there is a group of people who will never understand and believe every word of God, and there is a groups of people who will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ( Luke 13:24 ).

I agree with what you just said but you seem to think that people can hear and believe the gospel message but can not then latter reject that message for various reasons and yet scripture says just that.

If it were not possible for people to fall away, to apostatize then why do we see warning in scripture about it? Heb_6:4-6, 2Pe_2:20, 2Th_2:3, 2Pe_1:10, 1Ti_4:1-4, 2Ti_4:3-4.

Are you going to use the line "well they never really believed".

Why all the drama that you see in the Scriptures?
I don't see any "drama".

If, as you postulate, all those that are saved were already picked out before creation then what we see in scripture is just drama. It has no real meaning, it is just a show. But it is not a show is it. It is real and thus we can know that your view is wrong as we are told that we must believe in the risen Christ if we are to be saved

Where you apparently see "chance" in God's salvation of people, I see a specific set of deeds for a specific set of purposes and for a specific group of people.

For example, I see that He came to suffer and die for His people ( Isaiah 53:8 ).
He made all the difference for them.

But you do seem to ignore other scripture that shows the error of your view.
Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man
1Jn_2:2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; ....also for those of the whole world.
1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all
Rom_5:6 at the right time Christ died for the ungodly
Rom_5:8 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

It is not chance but it is by choice that one is saved. God desires all to be saved
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And that is why He sent His son
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Those that hear and believe the gospel message will by the grace of God be saved.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Now to fully understand what God is telling us you should study these verses in the context in which they are found.

 

[Silverhair]

According to God's word, it was.

That is what makes it truly all of grace, and in no way allows man's works, of any kind, to enter in...
Influencing Him to save one and not another.
He saves, and He condemns...with no influence from men or their desires.

If He did, He would be guilty of lying when He told us that He is no respecter of persons.

Salvation is of grace just as we are told in
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is a gift that one receives through faith in the risen Christ. This clearly stated in
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

So we have no right to boast in regard to our salvation as only God can save
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

I'm taking it straight off the pages, Silverhair.
Every. single. word, ignoring none of them.

I hope someday that you will also see it...
That is why I encourage all those who profess Christ to bury themselves in His word, and not to take their cues from men or institutions of men.

You need to read and understand the whole council of God. When you only look at the verses that support your view you get a distorted understanding of the love that God has for His creation.

He sent His Son so that all could be saved but you have changed that into salvation for a restricted group through your man-made philosophy.

I do hope that through further study you will come to see the truth of God's word.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

The bible does not say that in Adam all men sinned. That is just something that has been read into the text.

What does Rom 5:12-15 tell us?

It means all men sinned in Adam, for all have sinned. Even people not yet born, have already sinned because of Adams sin. For instance someone will be born into this world tomorrow if the Lord tarries, that person will be born already in the past having sinned, in Adam, hence all have sinned. Then that person will begin compiling their own sins !

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, humanity is condemned due to unbelief. We start out as unbelievers, but have done nothing bad, so being in that condition is not a sin. However, once we are able to understand and embrace the gospel, and the gospel message is revealed to us, and we reject it, then our rejection is sin.

The bottom line

 

[Brightfame52]

@Van

humanity is condemned due to unbelief.

Not the elect, that part of humanity chosen in Christ, and Christ died for. They enter this world free of condemnation, Christ took care of that for them. However they do enter into the world as ungodly sinners, just not condemned.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



It means all men sinned in Adam, for all have sinned. Even people not yet born, have already sinned because of Adams sin. For instance someone will be born into this world tomorrow if the Lord tarries, that person will be born already in the past having sinned, in Adam, hence all have sinned. Then that person will begin compiling their own sins !

The view that you are presenting is just a man-made idea. It has no basis in the word of God. You have to read it into the text.

It fits your theology but it is not biblical.

If we went by your view then even Christ would have already sinned in Adam because He was born of a woman who according to you had already sinned because of Adams sin.

That is the problem with your calvinist view, you do not think it through to the actual conclusion.

A biblical view of "original sin" would be that Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally.

 

[Brightfame52]

The view that you are presenting is just a man-made idea. It has no basis in the word of God. You have to read it into the text.

It fits your theology but it is not biblical.

If we went by your view then even Christ would have already sinned in Adam because He was born of a woman who according to you had already sinned because of Adams sin.

That is the problem with your calvinist view, you do not think it through to the actual conclusion.

A biblical view of "original sin" would be that Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally.

According to scripture, did levi pay tithes to Melchizedek, before he was born, and while yet in the loins of Abraham Heb 7:9-1-

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

 

[Silverhair]

According to scripture, did levi pay tithes to Melchizedek, before he was born, and while yet in the loins of Abraham Heb 7:9-1-

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Adam sinned and as a result we suffer the consequences of that sin. We did not sin in Adam yet death has spread to all mankind.

Adam’s sin was an act of disobedience which resulted in separation from God and led to humanity’s fall and one's death. Abraham’s tithe was an act of faith that affirmed God’s provision and pointed toward the possibility of one's reconciliation and divine blessing.

Through your view we all sinned in Adam so does that mean that we all paid tithes in Abraham?

You are trying to compare apples and oranges so to speak.
Adam's sin was voluntary
Abraham's tithe was voluntary
Levi's tithe was commanded

For you comparison to hold you would have you have all of humanity commanded to sin. Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Adam sinned and as a result we suffer the consequences of that sin.

Thats true, we were complicit with Adam when he sinned, God in him says all men sinned.

Answer the question, according to Heb 7:9-10

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Also were all men in Adams loins in the beginning ?

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Thats true, we were complicit with Adam when he sinned, God in him says all men sinned.

Answer the question, according to Heb 7:9-10

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Also were all men in Adams loins in the beginning ?

As I said before
Adam’s sin was an act of disobedience which resulted in separation from God and led to humanity’s fall and one's death.
Abraham’s tithe was an act of faith that affirmed God’s provision and pointed toward the possibility of one's reconciliation and divine blessing.

Yes all men sin but the bible does not say we are guilty of Adam's sin. That is a view that calvinists have read into the text.

You are trying to equate Levi's tithe to our sin. Biblically that does not work.

Heb 7:9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

Take care of what you want to find in these verses BF. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and this showed his superiority to Abraham. By extension Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek. To equate that to mankind being guilty of Adam's sin requires you to read into the text as God told us what the consequences of Adam's sin were. Did you see that all were now guilty of Adam's sin in the text?

What we do find in the bible is this
Eze_18:20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Levi paying tithes does not equate to mankind be guilty of the sin of Adam.
And the bible actually makes that clear
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So are you now going to say only some are guilty of Adam's sin?

 

[Blank]

Is Unbelief a Sin?

Romans 14:23b ASV
; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Dave G]

If it were not possible for people to fall away, to apostatize then why do we see warning in scripture about it? Heb_6:4-6, 2Pe_2:20, 2Th_2:3, 2Pe_1:10, 1Ti_4:1-4, 2Ti_4:3-4.

Are you going to use the line "well they never really believed".

Because they are tares whom the Lord did not save...
"Christians" in the visible body of Christ, but not Christians in the spiritual body of Christ.

As proof of who those are that fall away and do not endure to the end, their "faith" fails under trials ( Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8 )...
While the ones who are saved have true faith;
The faith of Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:20 ) and they bring forth good fruit ( Galatians 5:22-24 )...some 30, some 60 and some 100-fold.

But you do seem to ignore other scripture that shows the error of your view.
Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

Please read the rest of Hebrews 2, Silverhair.
He tasted death for?

10) Many sons
11) They that are sanctified
12) "My brethren"
13) The children which God has given to Him
14) The children
15) "them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage"
17) "the people"
18) "them that are tempted".

Focusing on verse 9 ( to the exclusion of what the rest of the passage further develops ), ignores the context of who the "every man" is, that is being spoken of.

 

[Dave G]

Rom_5:6 at the right time Christ died for the ungodly

Again, ( and as you've encouraged me to do ), take them in their proper contexts, Silverhair.

Who is the book of Romans written to?
Those that have already believed on Jesus Christ.

Who is being spoken to ( and is the subject of ) in chapter 5?
Those that have already believed on Jesus Christ.

" Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 and patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."(Romans 5:1-5)

Who are the ungodly in verse 6?
Those that are justified by faith and who have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Rom_5:8 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Who are the "we" and the "us" above?
The believers at Rome, or unbelievers whom Paul is not writing about, nor is he addressing in the letter?

Now to fully understand what God is telling us you should study these verses in the context in which they are found.

To fully understand just the sampling of the ones you gave as proof that the Lord is speaking to and about all men ( and not to the believers in Jesus Christ ), perhaps you should study the ones you gave to me in the context in which they are found, my friend.

It seems you've missed who is being spoken to and about.

The other ones you've listed can be explained in their proper contexts as well, though the ones I addressed should be enough to hopefully give you pause, and drive you into the Scriptures further to double-check how you're seeing them.

 

[Dave G]

You need to read and understand the whole council of God. When you only look at the verses that support your view you get a distorted understanding of the love that God has for His creation.

Sir, I encourage you to read and understand the whole council of God.
When a person fails to identify who is being spoken to and about in a particular passage of His word, one gets a distorted understanding of the love that the Lord has for those that He has saved.

That said,
I've gone much farther than I should have, especially in this thread, than what the Lord commands me to in my admonitions...
But I've done my best to follow my Lord's commands here:

" And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."


Again, I wish you well, and I will make this my final post in this thread.
May He bless you greatly as you dig deeper into His precious word.

 

[Silverhair]

Because they are tares whom the Lord did not save...
"Christians" in the visible body of Christ, but not Christians in the spiritual body of Christ.

As proof of who those are that fall away and do not endure to the end, their "faith" fails under trials ( Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8 )...
While the ones who are saved have true faith;
The faith of Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:20 ) and they bring forth good fruit ( Galatians 5:22-24 )...some 30, some 60 and some 100-fold.

You do realize that you cannot fall away from a position that you have not held don't you?

I agree that there will be those that have a false believe within the body but that is not what it means to fall away from or to apostatize from the faith.

2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

As you said there faith fails, in other words they had faith in Christ Jesus and then turned away. This is the same thing we see in the second and third seeds that Christ spoke of.

He tasted death for?

10) Many sons
11) They that are sanctified
12) "My brethren"
13) The children which God has given to Him
14) The children
15) "them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage"
17) "the people"
18) "them that are tempted".

Please read the rest of Hebrews 2, Silverhair.
Focusing on verse 9 ( to the exclusion of what the rest of the passage says ), ignores the context of who the "every man" is, that is being spoken of.

You are not saying anything different than what I have said. Christ tasted death for everyone.
All those you had listed are included because they fit within "everyone".

Who is excluded in these verses?
1Jn_2:2 the whole world
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
Rom_5:8 sinners

 

[Silverhair]

Again, ( and as you've encouraged me to do ), take them in their proper contexts, Silverhair.

Who is the book of Romans written to?
Those that have already believed on Jesus Christ.

Who is being spoken to ( and is the subject of ) in chapter 5?
Those that have already believed on Jesus Christ.

The book was written for both Gentiles and Jews that were in Rome. We know that not all we believers as Paul was eager to preach the gospel to them.

All men, Jew or Gentile, are under judgement for breaking the law of God, the heathen {Gentiles} who are sinners and know it, (Rom_1:18-32), the self-righteous {Gentiles or Jews} who think they are better than the heathen and thus are saved (Rom_2:1-11), and the those {Jews} who judge themselves better than the rest (Rom_2:17-25) all stand on the same level before the justice of God and all in need of the salvation God has provided.

Chapter 5 is written with regard to those that have trusted in Christ for their salvation as we can see from
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Who are the ungodly in verse 6?
Those that are justified by faith and who have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

You are reading into the text what is not there Dave. The text is clear Christ died for the "ungodly". Prior to anyone trusting in Christ they were the ungodly, the lost.

Paul restates this in verse 8
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Paul did not say that Christ died for only us did He? You have to read that idea into scripture and ignore clear scripture that shows the error of your thinking.

What you fail to accept is that we are all sinners that Christ came to save.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Why would Christ die for all those ungodly sinners
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.