Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats just a convenient excuse to reject the truth.
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Is Unbelief a sin ?
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Of course I do.
Those that hear and believe and are sealed after that belief, evidence that they are God's elect.
Those that hear, "believe" and are not sealed ( do not have the Spirit of God and fall away after trials and tribulations, etc. ), evidence that they are not saved.
No.
But I believe the Scriptures teach that one is elect, chosen "in Christ", before the world began;
While another is not.
Please see Romans 9, which gives us more detail about vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes I know that your cherry picking verses in the attempt to support your view is just as you say a convenient excuse to reject the truth.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Where do you find that view expressed in scripture? You seem to be reading into the text what is not there.
When we look at the 4 soils parable what are we told:
1; Some heard the gospel but rejected it
2; Some heard and believed but had no depth of faith
3; Some heard and believed but let their worldly values win the day
4; Some heard and believed and grew stronger in their faith
Are you suggesting that some who actually believe are not saved?
So if the "elect" were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world then you must believe that what the bible tells us is all just for show. Since all those that would be saved were already saved then why all the drama we see in scripture. Why did Christ have to come or go to the cross. His death and resurrection would make no difference as to who would be saved and who would be damned. According to your view it was all decided in eternity past.
That's not a biblical view but it is the one that you are putting forward.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Whenever a scripture is shown that makes a valid point, the opposer will conveniently say, you taking that out of context, its just a debate strategy.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Yes, of course, they were saved spiritually before they heard the Gospel and believed. Also they belonged to the Election of Grace, Chosen in Christ before the world began, Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
If you noticed the context, election preceded hearing and believing the Gospel
The same sequence here 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, of course, they were saved spiritually before they heard the Gospel and believed. Also they belonged to the Election of Grace, Chosen in Christ before the world began, Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
If you noticed the context, election preceded hearing and believing the Gospel
The same sequence here 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Verses pulled out of context can and are used by cults to support their views.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Whenever a scripture is shown that makes a valid point, the opposer will conveniently say, you taking that out of context, its just a debate strategy. Then they turn right around, and in attempting to make their point, pull a scripture out of some context, showing a double standard.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Think about what you just wrote BF.
You have people saved prior to hearing the gospel but the bible tells us we are to be bold in standing for the gospel message. "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes," Rom 1:16 We are also told why we need to hear the message "For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”" Rom 1:17
Those verses show you the error of your thinking BF. If one is saved prior to hearing the gospel message or even existing then why the gospel message.
We are chosen in Christ as that is the only way one is saved but we cannot be in Christ prior to our existing can we.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ...
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses...
Eph 1:11 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own,
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
As Eph 1:4 said we are chosen in Christ as that is the only way we can be saved. The plan of God was from the beginning that Christ would come for the salvation of all those that would freely trust in Him.
Paul, in 2Th_2:13-14, is expanding on what he has been saying to the believing Thessalonians regarding the return of Christ. He was admonishing them to grow in sanctification through the Holy Spirit and continued belief in the truth of the gospel message that he had preached to them.
These verses are not about initial salvation through trusting the gospel message but rather salvation of those that are in Christ at His return.
These verses need to be read together if you want to grasp the truths that Paul is teaching.
2Th 2:13 But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.
2Th 2:14 To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What verses were pulled out of context BF?
Do you not understand the context of Eph 1:3-14 or 2Th 2: 1-15 or Rom 1:16-21.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Whenever a scripture is shown that makes a valid point, the opposer will conveniently say, you taking that out of context, its just a debate strategy. Then they turn right around, and in attempting to make their point, pull a scripture out of some context, showing a double standard.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But I have not pulled verses out of context have I BF. You did. The context does not agree with your view.
Returning to topic, humanity is condemned due to unbelief. We start out as unbelievers, but have done nothing bad, so being in that condition is not a sin. However, once we are able to understand and embrace the gospel, and the gospel message is revealed to us, and we reject it, then our rejection is sin.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Whenever a scripture is shown that makes a valid point, the opposer will conveniently say, you taking that out of context, its just a debate strategy.
In Adam all men sinned, and so in him death passed upon all men, since all men have sinned. Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The bible does not say that in Adam all men sinned. That is just something that has been read into the text.
What does Rom 5:12-15 tell us?
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, {why} because all sinned— {note it does not say we sinned in Adam} {Gen 3:17-19 tells us what the consequences of Adam's sin was}
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {Note sin not imputed. If we all sinned in Adam why was it not imputed}
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, {If we all sinner in Adam how is our sin not in the likeness of Adam} who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one {Adam's sin} the many died, {the consequence of Adam's sin "Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."} much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
The consequence of Adam's sin is death and separation from God. We are judged for our sins not our parents or those of Adam.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It's there in the details, Silverhair.
I'm carrying over into Ephesians 1 what I've been told already in other places by the Lord.
Exactly.
Those that heard and fell away are those He never knew, and will tell them so at the Judgement.
Those that heard and persevered in their faith, are those that He has chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world...they grow and bear fruit, because they have the Spirit of God in them, comforting them and keeping them in their faith by His power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not our power.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes.
The Lord will gather the "wheat" into His garner ( storehouse, symbolizing His sheepfold ), while casting away the "tares", or "chaff".
I see the Scriptures teaching that believing a set of facts for a time and then walking away doesn't count for anything.
Only Christ's sheep will endure to the end, my friend.
Only the "wheat", His elect, will run the race to the end.
Are you suggesting that:
1) everyone who professes Christ has actually been born again, made a new creature in Christ, given a new nature that loves what God loves and hates what God hates ( Psalm 139:21 ), sealed unto the day of redemption ( and has the Spirit of God in them ( and never bear true spiritual fruit, never grow in grace and knowledge ), despite Paul telling us that he suffered perils among false brethren ( 2 Corinthians 11:26 )?
2) That false prophets, that come among believers in sheep's clothing and teach things the Bible does not say and attempt to draw away people after themselves don't profess to know and love the Lord?
3) That everyone who professes Christ, with the mouth, actually loves the Lord with all their heart, knows Him and is known of Him?
I don't;
And again, that's where our individual understandings look like they not only diverge, but the farther we go in putting all the separate pieces of Scripture together, it results in a very different picture...
Once everything that the Lord has to say about the lost and the saved is factored in.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Silverhair, why do you think the Lord will tell people at the Judgement, who have done great things for Him, that He never knew them?
Not " I don't know you", or "I know you not" in the present tense, but "I never ( ουδεποτε ) knew you" in the past tense?
See what it says?
Not everyone who professes to know Him shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
There are indeed false brethren and false believers...people who profess Christ, but in their works they deny actually knowing Him ( Titus 1:16 ).
Another point:
His people, Christ's sheep, are sealed unto the day of redemption my friend;
The language doesn't put it any other way.
" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
Sealed until when?
Not "until they walk away from Him", or "commit too many sins that He cannot forgive them".
But until the day of their redemption.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Silverhair, why do you think the Lord will tell people at the Judgement, who have done great things for Him, that He never knew them?
Not " I don't know you", or "I know you not" in the present tense, but "I never ( ουδεποτε ) knew you" in the past tense?
See what it says?
Not everyone who professes to know Him shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
There are indeed false brethren and false believers...people who profess Christ, but in their works they deny actually knowing Him ( Titus 1:16 ).
Another point:
His people, Christ's sheep, are sealed unto the day of redemption my friend;
The language doesn't put it any other way.
" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
Sealed until when?
Not "until they walk away from Him", or "commit too many sins that He cannot forgive them".
But until the day of their redemption.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
It means that, and is equivalent to it because in adam all die 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: All past tense verbs
When Adam sinned, God said man transgressed the covenant Hos 6:7
But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Men here is the hebrew word 'āḏām, Men sinned in Adam, in Adam all die, and dying is the wages of sin, its elementary
It means that, and is equivalent to it because in adam all die 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: All past tense verbs
When Adam sinned, God said man transgressed the covenant Hos 6:7
But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Men here is the hebrew word 'āḏām, Men sinned in Adam, in Adam all die, and dying is the wages of sin, its elementary